Season 4! Call it!

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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby myrtus on Wed May 25, 2011 11:45 am

DarthLocke wrote:If you watch the road not taken then you realize to come to understand that at every single point in life can a new reality branch off and be considered "alternate" from any other.

I understand that premise, but notice how the new realities created from different choices aren't affected retroactively.

Peter's case is not exactly like Peck's because Peter used forward knowladge and then turned around and used it to make a decision (which the writers explain in their video that this is what Peter's ability is), but in both cases the timelines are altered and reset.

Both realities are altered, but Peter's case goes beyond that. He was deleted from the history before his choice. That didn't happen with Alastair. My point is, that they didn't explain, how that is possible.

Peck could alter the timeline greatly even in such a small period of time, because he himself died, where as he didn't before thus changing his existence and relativity to the future of the timeline. Peter's machine is like this, except LARGER scaled...he has just altered the timelines and converged them by not existing, regardless of what he knows, will, know, or doesn't know..it has been changed.

Maybe I'm more than obtuse, because I'm not following your reasoning. Non-existence allows you to do nothing. The machine let him look into a possible future if he made a certain choice. He prevented that future from happening, which somehow destroyed him a couple of minutes after he made that choice. Why was his deletion delayed? Why did it affect the memories of those present in the room? Why were the characters interacting with him, after he changed the timeline, but proceeded to forget him, when he disappeared? Again, the mechanism through which he was erased retroactively wasn't explained.

"White Tulip" proves to viewers that things can come to be with out anyone knowing (remembering) how. That alterations could have been happening in regards to other things that don't make sense to what we think should be true.

"White Tulip" proves that to viewers, but that wasn't my point. "White Tulip" didn't erase Alastair's existence or the memories of the people he met before he made the choice to die. My problem with the finale, besides the fact that they got rid of him so dismissively, is that they didn't explain satisfactorily, how that could possibly happen to Peter.
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby JacobsMom on Wed May 25, 2011 11:58 pm

myrtus wrote: He prevented that future from happening, which somehow destroyed him a couple of minutes after he made that choice. Why was his deletion delayed? Why did it affect the memories of those present in the room? Why were the characters interacting with him, after he changed the timeline, but proceeded to forget him, when he disappeared? Again, the mechanism through which he was erased retroactively wasn't explained.


I think TPTB had to bring Peter back for the viewers to see and make that reconnection once again in this normal time line. Peter also gave the viewers some answers about the First People too. At least that is what I am assuming at this point. My whole theory is that The Observers knew all along from the moment that Walter took Peter from his own universe, that things must be "course corrected" once again between these two universes. This meant that once Peter had that knowledge he received from the machine, he made possible the bridge between the universes so they could fix the holes between them. In doing this, I believe that Peter didn't know he would be removed from the time lines of both universes and at the point he disappears, everything starts over. No one will rememver him because he never existed at this point. This is something that I think The Observers knew would occur as almost a long con play of events.

My problem with the finale, besides the fact that they got rid of him so dismissively, is that they didn't explain satisfactorily, how that could possibly happen to Peter.


I think this is part of the whole cliff hanger for season 3 and as TPTB start again in season 4, they will eventually have to explain what happened. I don't think we will be getting it in the very first episode either! :( Fringe is a lot like Lost was in that the viewers had to wait and be patient for those pay offs later down the road.
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby DarthLocke on Thu May 26, 2011 2:42 am

I think they may not explain what happened per say in specifics, because the machines are science fiction, we might have to take a leap of faith on the physicality, as even explaining cassimar effect is hard, however the effects of the machines should give us all an idea of what it did...and it will be interesting to see how 'the visible one' comes to be in the new time line and if they gained different knowledge than what the viewers previously known about it!

I agree with Jacobsmom that the whole finale is left as such because we once again are going to get wind of another road not taken...and this is part of season four and another way for the writers to play on multi-universe empircalism concepts...

However, Peter's relativity is not completely wiped from the timelines, because the Observers still remember him, and most likely they will still be involved and by extension essentually be 'keeping the memory of Peter alive' with them.

---------------------------

I had another strange thought when I woke up this morning. It's probably too far fetched, but just in case...

So lets say everything is repeating in the red and blue time lines from the previous one...I have often thought that the Observers are man made, as some of the Fringe events could point to different scientific discoveries in leading to what could be "the evolution of the Observers" (MD Clones, Shapeshifters, and Milo). Well in the first few shows we know Walter is concerned because (both) Peter(s) were sick when they were children...but in the possible 2026 reality we also see that he remembers that Peter's "Gene"s are special in conjunction to being able to use the machine, which some of us had speculated was the case. I had thought that maybe that the first people had made super-homosapians...You could say this is true if that is in fact what the Observers are, but then we also have cases like Hoffman and Mosley whom may mirror the possible 'time traveling terrorist' also presented in the possible 2026 timeline (The end of dayers)...which the producers in a couple of occasions referred to Mosley as a rogue Observer..

So what if Peter doesn't exist, because Peter was something that was "created" in the original timeline? That he was some kind of hybrid experiment that maybe never had a 'real child hood' in that timeline? --If this were true it could explain further his 'lack of childhood memories', outside of blue Walter's experimenting and why in "White Tulip" they made this point to say that he is not on track with his destiny! If he wasn't created in way that evolution perceives as natural, then maybe this is why he can be telekentic with the machine and use it in this way and why the timelines don't exactly register his 'destiny' as something more specific like with other characters?...wasn't there a joke about someone being a robot?? --There are also been a few big nods to BSG/Caprica...so what if Peter is a first of his kind, and he's basically a cylon???? (which might also be Observer-esque)??????

By having him disappear for a while, or in some fashion might also then mirror the original timeline, because Peter might have been created to solve their problems with the terrorists and the decay of the universe and in order to deal with that problem again, we have to make the timelines more like they way they were before they were ever recreated??
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby JacobsMom on Sat May 28, 2011 10:25 pm

DarthLocke wrote:However, Peter's relativity is not completely wiped from the timelines, because the Observers still remember him, and most likely they will still be involved and by extension essentually be 'keeping the memory of Peter alive' with them.


I'm not sure if I totally agree with this Darth because if we are to believe what tptb are saying, then Peter no longer exists within these two time lines. I think The Observers are able to remember everything that occurs because that is what they do, they observe every change that occurs and record it for possible reference. They are not held to the normal time line events. They can even repeat what someone will say before they even say it out loud. I do agree that Peter has been recorded as existing before, so I can see them resetting things. I am really curious as to how tptb will incorporate Josh J. back into Fringe but as you said, I think there will be some type of reset or explanation of the regular time line that will bring Peter back as himself.

So what if Peter doesn't exist, because Peter was something that was "created" in the original timeline? That he was some kind of hybrid experiment that maybe never had a 'real child hood' in that timeline? --If this were true it could explain further his 'lack of childhood memories', outside of blue Walter's experimenting and why in "White Tulip" they made this point to say that he is not on track with his destiny! If he wasn't created in way that evolution perceives as natural, then maybe this is why he can be telekentic with the machine and use it in this way and why the timelines don't exactly register his 'destiny' as something more specific like with other characters?...wasn't there a joke about someone being a robot?? --There are also been a few big nods to BSG/Caprica...so what if Peter is a first of his kind, and he's basically a cylon???? (which might also be Observer-esque)??????

By having him disappear for a while, or in some fashion might also then mirror the original timeline, because Peter might have been created to solve their problems with the terrorists and the decay of the universe and in order to deal with that problem again, we have to make the timelines more like they way they were before they were ever recreated??


Remember the episode from season 2 where the MD scientist had a "son" go out of control using his mind? We find out at the end that it has only been one of many experiments that was done with these manufactured children. We saw at the end of the episode where there was a whole room full of these reproduced children as they took back this "boy" that malfunctioned. This sounds a lot like what you are saying about Peter being created. :hmm:
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby DarthLocke on Sun May 29, 2011 2:01 am

JacobsMom wrote:
DarthLocke wrote:However, Peter's relativity is not completely wiped from the timelines, because the Observers still remember him, and most likely they will still be involved and by extension essentually be 'keeping the memory of Peter alive' with them.


I'm not sure if I totally agree with this Darth because if we are to believe what tptb are saying, then Peter no longer exists within these two time lines. I think The Observers are able to remember everything that occurs because that is what they do, they observe every change that occurs and record it for possible reference. They are not held to the normal time line events. They can even repeat what someone will say before they even say it out loud. I do agree that Peter has been recorded as existing before, so I can see them resetting things. I am really curious as to how tptb will incorporate Josh J. back into Fringe but as you said, I think there will be some type of reset or explanation of the regular time line that will bring Peter back as himself.

So what if Peter doesn't exist, because Peter was something that was "created" in the original timeline? That he was some kind of hybrid experiment that maybe never had a 'real child hood' in that timeline? --If this were true it could explain further his 'lack of childhood memories', outside of blue Walter's experimenting and why in "White Tulip" they made this point to say that he is not on track with his destiny! If he wasn't created in way that evolution perceives as natural, then maybe this is why he can be telekentic with the machine and use it in this way and why the timelines don't exactly register his 'destiny' as something more specific like with other characters?...wasn't there a joke about someone being a robot?? --There are also been a few big nods to BSG/Caprica...so what if Peter is a first of his kind, and he's basically a cylon???? (which might also be Observer-esque)??????

By having him disappear for a while, or in some fashion might also then mirror the original timeline, because Peter might have been created to solve their problems with the terrorists and the decay of the universe and in order to deal with that problem again, we have to make the timelines more like they way they were before they were ever recreated??


Remember the episode from season 2 where the MD scientist had a "son" go out of control using his mind? We find out at the end that it has only been one of many experiments that was done with these manufactured children. We saw at the end of the episode where there was a whole room full of these reproduced children as they took back this "boy" that malfunctioned. This sounds a lot like what you are saying about Peter being created. :hmm:



Yeah!! "Of Human Action"! :thumbsup: -What was so interesting about the episode is that the Carson boy clone ended up choosing Peter to take along for the ride (he had mind controlling abilities! The experiment was actually said to be a Penrose-Carson expeiment!

NINA: "William, I don't know if you've been receiving these messages, but I continue to hope. I wanted to update you on the status of the Penrose-Carson experiments. One of the Tylers did, in fact, display a rather dramatic ability for mind control. But before we became aware of his ability, there were some unintended consequences. Among them, he was able to locate records of his surrogate mother, and, unfortunately, made a misguided attempt to reunite with her. In light of this, I am suspending the experiments indefinitely. You were right -- mind control is possible, given the right conditions. So despite the unfortunate circumstances, we can consider the project a success. As always, I hope this finds you in good health. Warmest Regards, Nina."



--And speaking of Penrose, I also remember that the end of "The Same Old Story" was weird too, because at the end of the episode they show us three clone-like men in gurneys, right after Peter is trying to get Walter to sleep...this was also the episode where Peter says, " You may be able to reanimate dead guinea pigs or... whatever, but I can bring anything mechanical back from the dead." --The irony if Peter would be sudo-mechanical! The episode also featured Penrose and his serial killing in need of putitary gland son--but Walter also mentions the idea that when he was with Kelvin Genetics the Government wanted them to "grow soldiers", which I would assume also clones...
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby supermodel on Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:59 pm

Today's "Ask Matt" seems relevant here. But if you disagree, yell at me and I will move this to another thread.

Question: Here's something I haven't seen brought up yet and that I'm really concerned about for Fringe S4. Now that Peter doesn't exist, doesn't that diminish the inevitable confrontations between Walter and Walternate, Olivia and Faux Olivia? The conflict between worlds was primarily motivated by Walternate's personal vendetta against Walter for kidnapping his son. Our Olivia was impersonated and her doppelganger slept with the man she was in love with. Take Peter out of the equation (or their memories), and as viewers we are cheated out of some meaty dramatic conflict. Will we ever see Walternate confront Walter over kidnapping his boy? It appears now all we will see is Walternate blaming Walter for the holes in his world. It just doesn't hold the same punch. One is personal, the other is global. I trust the writers, they are phenomenal, and the twist was awesome, but I can't help but feel that it will cheat us out of two enormous conflicts that we as viewers have been waiting to see play out for over a season now. — Roger

Matt Roush: All legitimate questions, but we really don't know what it means yet that Peter never existed, and how that impacts all that has come before. Until that is explained for us, one hopes in the season opener, it's kind of hard to judge what will come next. I have to believe that the conflicts between the dual Walters and Olivias — and the two worlds, for that matter — will remain deeply personal, because that's what distinguishes Fringe from just another exercise in cosmic ****. And whatever that twist implies, Joshua Jackson is still going to be a part of Fringe, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby DarthLocke on Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:55 am

supermodel wrote:Today's "Ask Matt" seems relevant here. But if you disagree, yell at me and I will move this to another thread.

Question: Here's something I haven't seen brought up yet and that I'm really concerned about for Fringe S4. Now that Peter doesn't exist, doesn't that diminish the inevitable confrontations between Walter and Walternate, Olivia and Faux Olivia? The conflict between worlds was primarily motivated by Walternate's personal vendetta against Walter for kidnapping his son. Our Olivia was impersonated and her doppelganger slept with the man she was in love with. Take Peter out of the equation (or their memories), and as viewers we are cheated out of some meaty dramatic conflict. Will we ever see Walternate confront Walter over kidnapping his boy? It appears now all we will see is Walternate blaming Walter for the holes in his world. It just doesn't hold the same punch. One is personal, the other is global. I trust the writers, they are phenomenal, and the twist was awesome, but I can't help but feel that it will cheat us out of two enormous conflicts that we as viewers have been waiting to see play out for over a season now. — Roger

Matt Roush: All legitimate questions, but we really don't know what it means yet that Peter never existed, and how that impacts all that has come before. Until that is explained for us, one hopes in the season opener, it's kind of hard to judge what will come next. I have to believe that the conflicts between the dual Walters and Olivias — and the two worlds, for that matter — will remain deeply personal, because that's what distinguishes Fringe from just another exercise in cosmic ****. And whatever that twist implies, Joshua Jackson is still going to be a part of Fringe, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.




Thanks for posting that! :thumbsup: I think there's good speculation there! The only thing I may sudo disagree with is that Olivias and Walters will be at it with each other since it seems like their hatred or misunderstandings come from their relationships with Peter, which is why I would assume Peter changed his relativity. In addition TDWD also pointed out that the real cause of chaos is the terrorists, which is what I think happened in the original timeline and why it was reflected in the possible 2026, and then more perminately extended to by repeated history/course correction through ZFT during the first two seasons(Day of Enders -alter reality via door-black hole, Robert David Jone/ZFT makes a door to an alternate reality.) So although I think they may still have some issues with each other, I think it will be minimal, as they both have to face a new enemy--new dual fringe cases...
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby DarthLocke on Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:47 pm

b3rt4 wrote:has anyone considered the possibility than , even tho the observers said "they dont remember him" in regards to peter, that olivia's cortexifan treatment would allow her to actually remember peter? or that peter wherever he now is would be able to contact her ?

this is all asides from the fact that there's now a rip / hallway between two worlds & a doomsday device that without peter would not be there...how are they going to explain that? it just happened?

nuts, totally nuts...which is why i like fringe.


I wanted to continue this discussion.

I think you make a great point.

First of all we do not know if Olivia is going to be a cortexifaner agian--it might have changed...

However, I still think you will be right, because "6B" emphisized that relationships can have strong quantum entanglements, and even though Peter, Olivia, and Walter did not remember that Peter and Olivia had met as children, they still end up meeting again in the future anyways....(course correction)

In addition because I felt and still feel that Peter parallels Desmond in many ways, that Olivia is meant to be his constant, but the problem may still lie in the fact that if there was only one Olivia in the original time line, then the truth might still be that both Olivia's are manifestations of that one, and if there is still only one Peter, then either one will have manifest in some way---sacrifice themselves for the other...either physically or emotionally.--But this might be way it's important that they work together with out him (the way he was to them)
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby DarthLocke on Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:58 pm

So I was going back through some Star Trek - Vulcan stuff on Wikipedia since both Abrams Star Trek continuation and Wrath of Khan were referenced back in season one (The Road Not Taken), in which we can make more direct reference to William Bell via both Immanual Grayson (<---Grayson aslo being an additional Star Trek reference, as Amanda Grayson was Spocks' [human] Mother) and of course we all know that Mr. Nimoy is what we would consider Spock - A and B -Prime, and then also later in "6B" and "LSD" with the soul magnets play on Vulcan rituals and abilities...

"Katra
Some Vulcans appear able to "cheat death" by implanting their katra, essentially their living essence or spirit, into an object or another person via a form of mind-meld just prior to death. Dr Julian Bashir in the episode "The Passenger" of Deep Space Nine referred to this phenomenon as "synaptic pattern displacement." The history and mechanics of the katra have never been discussed in great detail in canon. It was known at the time of Surak, and Surak successfully transferred his essence into a "katric ark" which remained hidden for 1,800 years until it was recovered by a Vulcan named Syrran in the 22nd century. Syrran melded with the ark and received Surak's katra, which guided him into creating the Syrrannite movement, which fought to restore Surak's teachings to Vulcan, but instead was labeled a terrorist group by the Vulcan High Command.
"

There are times where I feel Peter parallels William Bell---and so I feel like this whole passage might not only apply to what we have seen on FRINGE, but also specifically with Peter in season 4---so perhaps I should go digging into synaptic pattern displacement and into something we could call a "katric ark"....I think in some ways this is what happened with Olivia when she saw an astral projected Peter while over there (The Plateau) and of course we could apply this to John Scott---the memory of him might be "supressed" and perhaps there is something that specifically triggers the previous set of memories (Think Lost's flash side ways, except this may still be with in the corporeal existence.) It might be that when the characters died before in some other time line, their whole essence might be waiting to be transfered--passed on like a paper white tulip to a new body and new existence---thinking about all the ways the show could continue to explore this makes really excited for the next season. :)
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby Xindilini on Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:50 am

I haven't been around recently. (Been spending time on the Star Trek forums.)
So has anyone thought that maybe Peter isn't either Walter Bishop's offspring yet then?
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby DarthLocke on Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:31 pm

Xindilini wrote:I haven't been around recently. (Been spending time on the Star Trek forums.)
So has anyone thought that maybe Peter isn't either Walter Bishop's offspring yet then?



I think anything is possible, but I would think that at least one Walter would have still have experienced a type of loss in order for the final seen when Peter disappears to still make sense to the new timeline/memory alteration...so my guess is that Peter/Peters never makes it to adulthood....

However, I still think Peter as an adult can still exist (he might be able to travel in time and is only temp displaced)...even if the other characters don't know whom he is/was...there was a season 2 episode titled, "The Night of Desirable Objects", in which Walter says something that I thought one day could be profound and relate to something later in the series, as he tries to make a comparison to this man keeping his genetically modified son alive and hidden under the cornfields to his own situation. Walter says, "A grave for a boy, who is not in his grave."

Night of Desirable Objects is also a play on Fishing/boat motif that has been woven into the show (Row Row Row Your Boat = trying to take control of your fate/future) plus, we could also argue like the 'fishing lure', Peter is/will be what's needed and desired one way or another...
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby Xindilini on Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:26 pm

I agree. Not existing could also mean not surviving the illness.
Walter would not feel loss, unless there was a child there to begin with.
The other used his loss as an excuse to blame the other for what happened.
It would drive a man insane if he had to watch his son die two times in a very short time.
Walter did say he took solace in knowing at least one Peter would grow up.
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Re: Season 4! Call it!

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:34 pm

I was discussing some things with JacobsMom on the spoiler thread --it's all specultive, and doesn't have to do with any specidfic spoilers, but I am on a season 3 rewatch and my feelings about the upcoming season have become more specific...



I am on a series rewatch--and I just finished "The Plateau" --I still believe a lot of the Fringe cases we see relate to what might be perceived as 'the evolution of the Observers' (things that relate to they way in which they exist)

This is the episode over there after blue Olivia caved into allowing herself to believe she is the red Olivia and 'Peter' keeps appearing to tell her otherwise. In addition Milo Stanfield due to drugs operates at a higher brain function in which he can use variables (like a pen) to start off a chain reaction in which he kills people... He literally becomes n'sync with the flow of events. This has also left Milo a bit emotionally unresponsive towards others (He no longer cares for the feelings of his sister)...He wasn't able to to predict the path of Olivia, seemingly because she was really two variables in one, as blue Olivia emerged on and off through out the episode, but it also may suggest that Milo could only predict and create specific paths of variables with in his own universe.

Note: Milo could read and speak his sisters thoughts at the same time she thought them, the same as we see September do with Peter in "The Arrival" near Robert's grave site...

In a few episodes, like "The Firefly", September claims to not know which future(s) will come to pass, explaining there are too many variables (This is also explained by red Astrid as "impossible" in "The Plateau")....but if we go back to "The Arrival" we see September also physically interact and time/record a sequence of events (telekenesis) to predict and expose 'the beacon'. Plus in other episodes, we see him and December discuss the outcomes of things as they both comment with lines such, "It's too bad things are going to be so hard for her.", "It has begun." , and "You were right, they don't remember him"...so it does imply they are in fact interfering and trying to create a specific outcomes...

Really the ideas presented in season three and season one, like with blue Olivia, seem like it will relate and manifest in this coming season, assuming that we may be right about some of the characters remembering things from before [the reset], like in Lost's flash-sideways, and expressed in season's one and three, can ONE person retain at least two sets of memories (Blue Olivia: John Scott and Red Olivia)...

I 100% agree with you that despite that the Observers' statement that Peter has "served his purpose", that they haven't taken into account Peter's feelings and the power of love (think "August") and that Peter still is the most important piece in the universes. He is the Monster (Frankenstein/ Smoke Monster- Desmond w/ Island) created that the Observers think they can just discard and abandon after they use him...and his story is nowhere near done. And I think we will see him come head to head with the Observers and their agenda...
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