[Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

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[Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby PandaVamp on Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:15 am

"Wallflower"

9:00PM

Discuss the latest Fringe Episode here.




When a man mysteriously dies by an invisible force, his body rapidly begins turning ghostly white. The Fringe team learns that this is not an isolated incident, and there’s evidence that links the predator to someone who passed away with an unknown genetic disorder. Meanwhile, Olivia (Anna Torv) suffers from migraines.

Cast: Anna Torv as Olivia Dunham; Joshua Jackson as Peter Bishop; John Noble as Walter Bishop; Lance Reddick as Phillip Broyles; Blair Brown as Nina Sharp; Jasika Nicole as Astrid Farnsworth; Seth Gabel as Lincoln Lee

Source: FOX


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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby Xindilini on Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:17 am

Does this imply that Massive Dynamic was responsible for all the pattern events since the beginning? :hmm:
- Kelvin Genetics from season 1's Unleashed became MD in this timeline.
- All the shady characters in season 1 could be working under Massive Dynamic all along. :w00t:
- Interesting to note that Nina having custody of Olivia may not be a coincidence. :O

Eugene's collecting the items so so so reminded me of The X-Files Eugene Victor Tooms.
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby lost on Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:03 pm

Fringe 4.7: The Invisible Man
The Invisible Man has been a great staple of science fiction since H. G. Wells' novel (1897) of the same through Hollow Man (the fine 2000 movie starring Kevin Bacon). He - or another version of an invisible guy - returned tonight in Fringe (episode 4.7), which exells in bringing classic science fiction onto today's television screens.

The specifics of the story are less important than what they do to Olivia. The invisible man - struggling to become visible, literally dying to do that - became that way due to a genetic condition, treated by a predecessor of Massive Dynamic, with Bell and Nina in residence. This has two effects:

1. Olivia gets more in touch with the treatment Walter and Bell subjected her to.

2. Even more importantly, this gets Olivia to go see Nina. Which sets up the ending: Olivia is knocked out (white gas under her door), and injected with something that will remove her memories from the two hours. In some sense, Nina is now a villain.

But to what purpose? What did Olivia see, think, do, feel in the previous two hours that Nina, for whomever or whatever she may be working for, wants Olive (as Nina calls Olivia in their meeting) to forget? We'll have to wait until January to find out more, but I'm thinking Nina may be working in concert with Walternate.

We haven't seen too much of the alternate universe in Fringe this Fall, but the coming attractions show it will be back in the action.

Both ours and the alternate universe have been changed by Peter's absence, and it's important to bear in mind in which ways the alternate universe has been changed and unchanged from what we knew of it last season (we've seen this season how much our universe has been changed by Peter's absence). Since Peter "died" in the crossing on the iced-over lake, Walternate may hate our universe and Walter even more than in the reality in which Peter at least lived on our side. From Walternate's point of view in this double-universe without Peter, Walter not only kidnapped Peter but killed him.

The resolution has to come down to Peter, now, who is the only witness (other than the Eternal Bald Obersvers) to what we the audience saw the first three seasons. He gives Lincoln a new pair of glasses - to make him more attractive to Olivia? - but the metaphoric implications of this are huge. What's going on in Fringe is how to improve everyone's vision, so they see the truth. Somehow, that reality - ours and Peter's (who is also an invisible man) - has to become visible.


I've quoted the above from paullevinson.blogspot.com as I thought it was an interesting analysis of the episode.

I got the impression that Nina was injecting her with more cortaxifan (did I spell that right?) but if so why and to what ends? It seemed very specific about two hours, what did or what would she need to forget? And how long have these experiments been going on for? And it's obvious Olivia was taken in by Nina for her own gain.

Something shady is going on at MD.
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby DarthLocke on Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:06 pm

Xindilini wrote:Does this imply that Massive Dynamic was responsible for all the pattern events since the beginning? :hmm:
- Kelvin Genetics from season 1's Unleashed became MD in this timeline.
- All the shady characters in season 1 could be working under Massive Dynamic all along. :w00t:
- Interesting to note that Nina having custody of Olivia may not be a coincidence. :O

Eugene's collecting the items so so so reminded me of The X-Files Eugene Victor Tooms.


Think you hit the most important question on the head!

--We know that during the first 2 seasons, but especially season 1, that ZFT often related to fringe cases that stemmed from MD/Kelvin Genetic research, or MD/Kelvin Genetic scientist gone rougue (Steige, Penrose, Jones).

In season 2 episode, "Of Human Action" the boy who could take control over Peter turned out to be a clone of Carson's son (Carson worked at MD) as part of a "Penrose-Carson Experiment", but the FRINGE Division NEVER learns this. The viewers are left with the impression that MUCH more goes on at MD than we think....

So either they have shown us this because it still is going to come down to Massive Dynamic (and possibly Nina) in the end of the series, or they are showing us a POSITIVE PROGRESSION "if" Peter would exist. What I mean is, this timeline may have existed and is a previous iteration of "our" timeline....In the timeline where Peter(s) were not meant to exist (season 4), the roles that Peter had before (seasons 1-3) might have fallen onto other characters (ex: Olivia is now Peter, Peter was watched by Nina Sharp as a child, Olivia is now closer to Walter), and creates a more hostile bleak world. So that the timeline where September saves Peter and he is able to grow up, is the timeline where EVERYONE has the potential to be[come] "better". (Peter = Hope)

It's clear that in this reality Nina is like our Walternate. Her adoption of Olivia is still "fated" and relates to our reality------->remember the Pilot: "Agent Dunham. I would say this to my own daughter: "Be careful and good luck." This Nina will stop at nothing for her experiements (like ZFT/End of Dayers) --Olivia was a cortixifan subject ---she has value to this Nina, but I fear what happens when Olivia gets in her way. We may meet Mr. X after all!

----------------------------

Just wanted to say I loved the episode! Once again believe the ideas in this episode adds to "the evolution of the Observers" which now since we have winter hiatus, I think I will put together a thread about it!

IMO this Olivia is having close brushs with death and I think it's forshadowing...This might be one reason why Peter is here. It was nice to see Lincoln wanted to get close and Olivia too! I think in this universe they are 'hoped' to be together and Peter recognizes it too!

Anyways, I am sad we have to wait...I can only hope we get our full season order, because I think Fox only gave them renewal for 13 episodes.... :S
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby JacobsMom on Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:09 pm

I need to rewatch first before I comment on this episode but I did check to see and Fringe had received a renewal of 22 episodes last March from FOX. So, we should at least get a full season if FOX doesn't pull the rug out from underneath of them.

I am sort of bummed that we couldn't at least get in this last episode #8 because it was written by David Fury and I think it will be brilliant as the earlier ones he did this season. :( It will be hard to hold on for almost 2 months with the image of creepy Nina looking on as her thugs work on Olivia at her apartment. I just thought it ended at a terrible point in the story line for us the viewers. :thumbsdown:
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby WJames on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:15 am

I liked the promo for 4.08 more then this whole episode. There is just something inside my brain that can't process the thought of Lee being with Olive. Not this blueish versions of them, at least. I just remember the last three seasons and Peter and Olive married in the future and the montage before he climbed in that machine...

I thought something like that wouldn't bother me, but it does. I simply don't care for any other character except Peter. It is different from how I felt when the red universe was first introduced. I am just failing to connect with this amber versions. I was somewhat interested with them in the first 2 episodes, then I stopped having any interest at all and was waiting for Peter to return and now I'm basically only invested in him. O.o

Maybe I'll just wait for the season to finish and then check the rest of the episodes. :S

p.s. This episode was very Lost-ish in a way. Number 23, Walter building a small maze and experimenting on mice ( Faraday). There was something else but I can't remember...

6/10
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby Gary Troup on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:27 am

WJames wrote:Maybe I'll just wait for the season to finish and then check the rest of the episodes. :S

That's my plan :D

I'm really struggling to stay interested this season :(
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:34 am

JacobsMom wrote:I need to rewatch first before I comment on this episode but I did check to see and Fringe had received a renewal of 22 episodes last March from FOX. So, we should at least get a full season if FOX doesn't pull the rug out from underneath of them.

I am sort of bummed that we couldn't at least get in this last episode #8 because it was written by David Fury and I think it will be brilliant as the earlier ones he did this season. :( It will be hard to hold on for almost 2 months with the image of creepy Nina looking on as her thugs work on Olivia at her apartment. I just thought it ended at a terrible point in the story line for us the viewers. :thumbsdown:


Oh good! I couldn't find the information! :w00t: Thanks for letting us know! :D

Episode 8 also had something really cool about it that I can't discuss here. It is a shame that we had to end here, but at the same time, maybe the 'what would have been the cliffhanger' was so huge, that it would have been horrible to have to wait so long for it's conclusion. (At least I will try and talk myself into that belief).

But I liked the MOTW story so much, that it didn't bother me not to have a super cliffhanger. I kind of think the ending might provoke a season 1 rewatch... O.o


WJames wrote:I liked the promo for 4.08 more then this whole episode. There is just something inside my brain that can't process the thought of Lee being with Olive. Not this blueish versions of them, at least. I just remember the last three seasons and Peter and Olive married in the future and the montage before he climbed in that machine...

I thought something like that wouldn't bother me, but it does. I simply don't care for any other character except Peter. It is different from how I felt when the red universe was first introduced. I am just failing to connect with this amber versions. I was somewhat interested with them in the first 2 episodes, then I stopped having any interest at all and was waiting for Peter to return and now I'm basically only invested in him. O.o

Maybe I'll just wait for the season to finish and then check the rest of the episodes. :S

p.s. This episode was very Lost-ish in a way. Number 23, Walter building a small maze and experimenting on mice ( Faraday). There was something else but I can't remember...

6/10


Well, their plans were somewhat thwarted! :whistle:

I think blue Olivia's themes are that she doesn't ever get to be happy...It's hard to say how many timelines there are where even one Peter survives, but I think it's nice to know that in certain timelines the absence or substance of just one person could make a difference and so there for, even if we are like other people, we might never ever be 'exactly' like someone else...perhaps we are each unique and this is the point of showing us a reality where Olivia has the potential to be happy with Lee....but it could be that Peter makes that happen...he might be there to save her life, because this timeline might have existed before ours, and so Peter's presence could alter it, as this could then in turn could find a way to be with his Olvivia (reciprocity).
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby JacobsMom on Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:09 am

"Wallflower"

One thing I have always liked about Fringe and of course, LOST, is that they are both shows that make you think. Fringe is so good at taking a story line each week that has many layers to it and then "show" them to the viewer which can then "think" about it in detail. I know this is not for the average viewer to enjoy, but I for one am glad we get these kind of shows even though the ratings may not help these shows survive.

This episode did that again even though it seemed like just another MD experiment gone bad. My favorite scene was between U Gene and Olivia as he saves her from falling and tells her how he feels. She has been realizing all along with this case that what has happened to this poor guy and herself are not that different. Only she can sympathize with what this guy has gone through and we see her struggle with the facts as they uncover them. It also sets up the fact that we see Nina may not be the caring individual she is trying so hard to portray to everyone, even to Olivia who treats her like the substitute mom that Nina became.

After rewatching, I don't think Nina's men were trying to erase the memories of what occurred with U Gene as much as giving Olivia an injection of some drug, (Cortexiphan again??), to further a study of how Olivia was reacting to it. Olivia was only going to lose memories of the last couple of hours, and it was supposedly already very early in the morning as Olivia tells Lincoln the time of their "date", so I doubt it had anything to do with the COTW. They, Nina and MD, also seem to be watching Olivia constantly as we see the one man replace new film in the camera. At least, I think that's what he was doing. So what is NIna up too? Whatever it is, she needs Olivia to accomplish it and this may have started way back when Olivia and Rachel lost their mother to cancer. If Nina needed to have control over Olivia, then who's to say that this MD didn't have some secret mission to get rid of Olivia's mother and have Nina become the surrogate mother. :hmm:

I like the dynamics of this Olivia and this Lincoln trying to become a couple. I agree with DarthLocke that we are seeing a sort of role reversal in this universe. Here Olivia is Peter and Lincoln is Our Olivia. They are drawn to each other with these different personalities that bring them together to help each other cope just as we saw in our universe with Olivia and Peter. I also love the fact that Peter is trying to help Lincoln make it work out between them!

I also think that Peter is here in this universe for more than just helping out Olivia and Lincoln become a couple. I believe he does have a purpose here to do something that he doesn't even realize yet. He may be focused on getting "home" again but maybe his randomness of showing up here isn't so random after all. I'm thinking that whatever he needs to do here is going to help out our universe in the end and set things right again.

The saddest scene was when U Gene finally realizes that his special woman from the elevator had noticed him all along. :cry: She liked him and he finally got that recognition he had always wanted. He wasn't invisible to her and it was both sad and happy to see him get to have that before he died.

Good lines:
"No! I've lived my whole life in a lab." U Gene
"This isn't about curing himself, this is about being seen." Olivia
"I see you everyday." woman from elevator tells U Gene

LOST stuff:
Walter with his mouse maze containing John/Yoko vs Daniel Faraday with his mouse maze and Eloise
23rd floor where Olivia encounters U Gene vs 23 as a number in LOST

Something I noticed:
I just realized as this season has gone on that there is no Gene the cow in this universe!! :( Another sad fact for this Walter.
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:19 am

^ You brought up another reason why I am concerned about this Olivia having brush with death....

23 was Jacks number and for me his death in some ways was almost the worst because of the way it came full circle for him, even though I interpret LOST with other timelines and life goes on....However Jack saves the Island and I think if Peter (and some times Olivia) parallels any LOST character's roles I would say Desmond and Jack are the first to come to mind...

But the mouse was named John and they made a comment like "is he dead" or something like that. John's death is what pushed Jack to come back to Island...
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby WJames on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:05 pm

The mouse was named John, that's what I forgot! :huh: Yeah...

Olivia was the only one who could sympathize with the guy, but that is actually something that is bothering me. I actually saw U-gene as a mirror to Peter and I think that the invisibility was a nice parallel to Peter's feelings, his isolation and forced solitude (He isn't allow to interact with people, like the little kid in the store). His storyline was completely separated from the main plot of this episode, but the main plot reflected perfectly on him and his troubles. Surprisingly, Olivia didn't show much if any sympathy towards Peter this season, she did not connect to him on any level and that is something I really find odd and unOlivia like. Lincoln on the other hand was the only one willing to treat Peter decently.

So, why can Olivia connect so quickly with a murderous stranger but fails to do the same with a guy who she dreamed about for weeks??? This is why I don't care for this amber versions of the characters. Walter is messed up and pathetic because he lost TWO sons who were basically the same person and now when he gets another chance to be with him he acts like a 5 year old??? For what reason??? That is simply not working for me. I believe that 99% of the people would take the chance and I am certain that Walter would/should to, no matter how badly messed up he is.

Fringe is a great show most of the time, but this year I feel that the writers aren't producing their A-game, or even B-game. I feel like its Lost repeating all over again. I know that most of you here are die hard Lost fans who love the show to death. But Lost suffered from bad writing, especially in last three seasons with the emphasis on season 6 and series Finale and I feel that the history is repeating with Fringe. Dealing with ethereal, pseudoscience, human nature and behavior in extraordinary circumstances and all that which this show offers us is what appeals to me, but this dip of writing quality in season 4 is really worrisome. :(
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:30 pm

WJames wrote:The mouse was named John, that's what I forgot! :huh: Yeah...

Olivia was the only one who could sympathize with the guy, but that is actually something that is bothering me. I actually saw U-gene as a mirror to Peter and I think that the invisibility was a nice parallel to Peter's feelings, his isolation and forced solitude (He isn't allow to interact with people, like the little kid in the store). His storyline was completely separated from the main plot of this episode, but the main plot reflected perfectly on him and his troubles. Surprisingly, Olivia didn't show much if any sympathy towards Peter this season, she did not connect to him on any level and that is something I really find odd and unOlivia like. Lincoln on the other hand was the only one willing to treat Peter decently.

So, why can Olivia connect so quickly with a murderous stranger but fails to do the same with a guy who she dreamed about for weeks??? This is why I don't care for this amber versions of the characters. Walter is messed up and pathetic because he lost TWO sons who were basically the same person and now when he gets another chance to be with him he acts like a 5 year old??? For what reason??? That is simply not working for me. I believe that 99% of the people would take the chance and I am certain that Walter would/should to, no matter how badly messed up he is.

Fringe is a great show most of the time, but this year I feel that the writers aren't producing their A-game, or B-game even. I feel like its Lost repeating all over again. I know that most of you here are die hard Lost fans who love the show to death. But Lost suffered from bad writing, especially in the last three seasons with the emphasis on season 6 and the series Finale and I feel that the history is repeating with Fringe.



You make a good point about the reason why "she" would be dreaming about him. I often wonder if she met another child version of Peter before he died, and like the missing memory of "Subject 13", If another young Peter and this young Olivia shared an important experience and Peter dies, then Peter's death might have shattered that hope. So her acceptance of him could stem from a long lost wish that he would be "alive" and it's part of the abilities of cortexifan.

Another possibility is that Nina knows something about the Machine(s) that hasn't been presented to the audience yet. ---Maybe the drugs she gives Olivia is a test to see if she can "pull" people out of the state of being 'in the machine' ...Maybe she wanted to bring Peter her. Maybe she wants to destroy the red universe...or maybe it's leading to a bigger plot....

Third possibility lies with "Deja Vu" If our Olivia could know and remember things about other versions of herself, then it stands to reason that this Olivia does too. If our Olivia is still in existence she might be thinking about Peter and since Peter went with in her mind, and her mind is connected to other Olivia's, then it could have to do with that.

--We don't know HOW the machines in this universe were turned on--made a bridge without 'Peter'.....We left our timeline with the machines making a bridge and Peter disappears....In the comic we come to actually meet another Peter who talks to our Peter...I don't exactly know how, but perhaps the Peters are exchanging themselves so that they can undo their own mistakes. So the previous Peter in another timeline did "here" what our Peter did "There", and now our Peter is undoing what the previous Peter did?????? (<---------That hurts :lol: )

Walter is lost because without Peter the events don't unfold the same. We are suppose to understand that in a lot of ways 'a universe without Peter' is sad, scary, 'lost', universe. The writers are making a point to say, that it can just takes one person's existence (or lack of by comparison) to change us in some way. (Even what Peter does is for his love of our Olivia)

All of the roles are changed....the good news might be that Walternate can now be persuaded to be helpful and caring, because,

Promo Spoiler Ahead!
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
In the Promo for next episode Peter goes to Walternate for help
instead of Peter being hunted down and forced by Walternate for help. This might be another BIG thing that could help his own timeline later on...Because in our timeline Walternate is the current problem. This Walter being SO scared is what forces Peter to 'do that'.

Note: In "The Last Sam Weiss" when Peter wakes up from the hospital bed he is "confused" and thinks he is suppose to "go home" to Walternate and the red universe (like when he was a child). He seems to completely forget about his experiences with the blue universe and the machine(s).

"The Last Sam Weiss" Transcript:

Liberty Island - Mistaken Identity
GUARD: Excuse me, you can't be here. we're evacuating the area.
PETER: I know, I know, but I have to talk to my father. I have something to show him. it's really important.
GUARD: And who, out of curiosity, is your father?
PETER: Walter Bishop. The Secretary of Defense.


I don't know what he wanted to show Walternate...maybe the coin he went to find? But maybe it related to the upcoming episodes somehow???

WALTER: Peter! What on Earth made you come here? (as Olivia gives him a hug) Are you alright, Son?
PETER: There are two of you, aren't there? I think I've been confused.
WALTER: (shines a light on his son's eyes and checks his blood pressure) What year is it?
PETER: Twenty-eleven.
WALTER: President?
PETER: Obama.
WALTER: Nausea, headaches, ear-ringing?
PETER: No, physically, I feel fine.
WALTER: And who is that woman over there?
PETER: Olivia.
WALTER: What's the last thing you remembered before you woke up in the hospital?
PETER: I remember getting into the machine... or trying to.
WALTER: Good. And do you know me?
PETER: I know you're not the Secretary of Defense. The sweater's a dead giveaway.
WALTER: Good. Fact that your memory's returning is a sign that your confusion is temporary. You're gonna be okay, Peter. Where'd you get this?
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby WJames on Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:39 pm

^ I really like everything you wrote and proposed here about what is happening and what is going to happen, Darth, but I just wish there was more of that stuff from the show itself this season. All those possibilities, all those questions... I really want them answered and presented. It really is like Lost again. I just hope Fringe delivers in the end. Season 5 seems like it can happen in another universe and not ours, the way the ratings are looking right now. So I hope that they have planned their emergency BIG ending in this season. :unsure:
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby Xindilini on Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:58 pm

JacobsMom wrote:"Wallflower"

Something I noticed:
I just realized as this season has gone on that there is no Gene the cow in this universe!! :( Another sad fact for this Walter.


http://www.fringefiles.com/gallery/albums/episodes/401/normal_Fringe401NeitherHereNorThere0002116.jpg
Gene did appear in the season premiere "Neither Here Nor There".
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Re: [Official] Fringe Ep. 4.07 Discussion

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:46 pm

WJames wrote:^ I really like everything you wrote and proposed here about what is happening and what is going to happen, Darth, but I just wish there was more of that stuff from the show itself this season. All those possibilities, all those questions... I really want them answered and presented. It really is like Lost again. I just hope Fringe delivers in the end. Season 5 seems like it can happen in another universe and not ours, the way the ratings are looking right now. So I hope that they have planned their emergency BIG ending in this season. :unsure:



I think so far they have been good about answering things, but yet also widen the scope as we go along. Unlike LOST we get physical answers to apply to our theories, where in LOST the physicality of what's going on was left to the viewers own interpretation. It was very hard to prove anything, because the plot centered around people who weren't looking for answers (except for John Locke) Everyone in the church who moved on, never came to the Island to expose it, or "use" it for self-serving reasons, so it makes sense that despite whatever the big picture is, it wasn't as important as seeing these characters comes to terms with themselves in some way. -I often think of FRINGE as if I were watching LOST from the perspective of the DI, because we constantly get physical answers to apply to the mythology and from there things build. The FRINGE characters are looking for answers.

I don't think we will stay "here" too long. I think the beginnings of seasons are hard, even last season some fans were daunted by the Olivia switches...Every season recontexualizes the show, but I don't feel like they haven't told us anything, instead they just take what we know and then turn it upside down and shake it to give us something new to chew on. Only time will tell if the ending will be satisfying.

But I agree that this most likely is our last season, but we have 15 episodes to go, so I think if they have to, they could conclude it in that time...but of course I would love for them to have another season to play with, but I think it's wishful thinking at this point. :unsure:
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