MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

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MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:04 pm

Alright folks I was unsure of where to put this since it includes MAJOR spoilers for episode 5x11 "The Boy Must Live". So I just created a new thread.

Before getting to it let me just explain how I got this info.

I got this info from a trusted person who has access to the reviewers advance copies of the episodes. This person has watched the episode. I will not reveal anymore about the source than that. So either take it, or leave it.

Also I'd like to categorize these so that you can pick and choose whether or not you want to peak under the spoiler tags. I will post them in order of least spoilerific, to most spoilerific. These constitute plot points, and twists, and other major reveals.

Anything in the parentheses is my 2 cents

BE WARNED THAT SOME OF THESE WILL SPOIL YOUR WATCHING EXPERIENCE IT IS UP TO YOU WHETHER OR NOT TO OPEN THE SPOILER TAGS.
Least major one: :thumbup:
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
We will be visiting 2609 AD as the promo suggested, and we will meet the grand Observer (played by actor James Kidnie). We will be seeing exactly how Observers are created, and get greater insight into their differences to modern humans. this future is described as very Blade-Runner-esque. (I assume that this is where Windmark is lamenting about his issues with the Fringe team resistance to his boss.)


Next level of spoilerific: :thumbsup:
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The "Boy" mentioned in the title is in fact speaking about "Michael", and not Peter. "Michael will be revealed to be September's "son" a better word would be "progeny" The source says that Observers are created via "Donors" whether DNA donors, or sperm donors? The source did not say. (This may allude to September's story paralleling Walter's story in that both are fathers who go WAY out of their way to protect their sons.)



Next level of spoilerific, this deals with the nature of "The Plan" :w00t: :S
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
Michael is the crux of the plan. All the components that Walter has been collecting are intended to be assembled into a time machine. The machine is intended to be used to bring Michael to the future (sometime between 2036 and 2609 I assume from what is told to me by the source). In this future that they will bring Michael to, scientist will study Michael, and will come to realize that they need not sacrifice emotional capacity for greater intelligence. (which is what the cortical implants do.) By altering the future in this way Implant Observers never come to be, and thus the invasion will be erased, because through Michael, future humans will discover how to achieve both the super-intelligence of Observers and great empathetic ability exhibited by Progeny XB-6783746 (Michael).



Next level... :S possible :thumbsdown: but a definite :thumbsup: if the last part works out
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The source claims that the plan will involve a sacrifice on Walter's part (whatever that means), and that if the plan works Olivia believes it will bring Etta back to them



Next Level... :w00t: :thumbup:
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
September is alive in some capacity, and will meet up with the Fringe team. (whether or not he is Donald as an old man, or a time-traveling September, or a re-Observerized September was not made clear to me by the source) The source says that September will give Walter a "White Tulip" to encourage him to carry on with the plan. (this suggests that Amber Walter was indeed given blue timeline memories by Michael with the touch last episode) The source also says that September and michael share a moment revolving around a music box, and that September and the Fringe team reflect on those they have lost.



Next level... :thumbsdown: :cursing: :scared:
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The Observers end up tracking down and pursuing the Fringe team, and Michael chooses to give himself up to the Observers so that the Fringe team can escape. (this apparently sets up the major directive for the final 2 hours, i/e the Fringe team having to rescue Michael so that they can carry out the plan)


Random tidbit concerning episode 5x12: :wub: :hmm:
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The Redverse will be featured in 5x12 in case you didn't already know.


Like I said, some major revelations, and some not so major, but it looks like 5x11 will be a heck of an episode to watch, and it looks like the finale is shaping up to be pretty cool if this is any indication.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:05 pm

This works find too! :D :lol:

Also If you would like add the 5x12 and 5x13 tadbits to the finale thread, go for it! :)

I ended up reading it all...so I guess I will give my two sense

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
I am betting that Michael's visions/beliefs are greater, or more far reaching in knowledge than September's -and his will to go against September's plans are important. The episode title still plays to Peter thematically, while highlighting Michael, since one can argue that Peter needed to live, so that Michael could live, and so that everyone has a better future. (or the opposite)

The problem with the plot is the lack of Michael's origin date and his time line in relation to his existence in this timeline, it's time loop (Brave New World), other Observers already existing in between the 2036-2906 dates, and other time line dates, in relation to the question, is there only one 2609? (which presumably Windmark's 2609 acts as it's own constant parallel reality to the rest of the amber time line, at least in certain spots. Windmark and possibly many of those are aware that he had existed and escaped...and then we have his season 1 appearance to consider...

I still think about Walter in LSD falling to his death at Redan Lake...I think perhaps he will sacrifice himself.

Ultimately if this plot plays out I do not think it erases what happened, but creates a new reality starting with this mystery date till 2906 and ultimately it appears like the future lets go of the past, but in fact, because the history starts in a past-future in which they don't invade another past, you just have a new version of the future. I think there would have to be greater measures from keeping all of the already existing Observers from not coming back to alter the past again. Or lock that 2609 "out", because they have somehow managed to keep this future constant the whole time...but perhaps the season 1-3 time line are the new Observers. and we are witnessing the past still??? Because otherwise nothing has yet to stopped them from existing and manipulating things...
Last edited by DarthLocke on Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:11 pm

DarthLocke wrote:This works find too! :D :lol:

Also If you would like add the 5x12 and 5x13 tadbits to the finale thread, go for it! :)


I put the 5x12 little tidbit, that is really only a confirmation of something you already probably know in the bottom spoiler box.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarkUFO on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:37 pm

Thanks for the spoilers. Good stuff.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:38 pm

DarkUFO wrote:Thanks for the spoilers. Good stuff.


You bet! :D
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:13 pm

DarthLocke wrote:This works find too! :D :lol:

Also If you would like add the 5x12 and 5x13 tadbits to the finale thread, go for it! :)

I ended up reading it all...so I guess I will give my two sense

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
I am betting that Michael's visions/beliefs are greater, or more far reaching in knowledge than September's -and his will to go against September's plans are important. The episode title still plays to Peter thematically, while highlighting Michael, since one can argue that Peter needed to live, so that Michael could live, and so that everyone has a better future. (or the opposite)

The problem with the plot is the lack of Michael's origin date and his time line in relation to his existence in this timeline, it's time loop (Brave New World), other Observers already existing in between the 2036-2906 dates, and other time line dates, in relation to the question, is there only one 2609? (which presumably Windmark's 2609 acts as it's own constant parallel reality to the rest of the amber time line, at least in certain spots. Windmark and possibly many of those are aware that he had existed and escaped...and then we have his season 1 appearance to consider...

I still think about Walter in LSD falling to his death at Redan Lake...I think perhaps he will sacrifice himself.

Ultimately if this plot plays out I do not think it erases what happened, but creates a new reality starting with this mystery date till 2906 and ultimately it appears like the future lets go of the past, but in fact, because the history starts in a past-future in which they don't invade another past, you just have a new version of the future. I think there would have to be greater measures from keeping all of the already existing Observers from not coming back to alter the past again. Or lock that 2609 "out", because they have somehow managed to keep this future constant the whole time...but perhaps the season 1-3 time line are the new Observers. and we are witnessing the past still??? Because otherwise nothing has yet to stopped them from existing and manipulating things...


Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
This goes along with what I've always said and thought. That there is no past future, just roads not taken, and or Possible futures. This goes with what September said to Walter in the Firefly episode that (paraphrasing here) There are many possible futures all happening simultaneously, and that he doesn't know which one will ultimately come to pass.

You see the reason the Badservers can exist in this scenario is because their present is so far into the possible future (2609) that probabilities have yet to have collapsed into a concrete present that prevents them from existing. They are at the moment still possible. But it seems that if the plan works, then a set of probabilities will become concrete enough to collapse into a future that the implant Observers never ever exist. So this will retro-actively change the timeline once again since the Badservers had already invaded the past (2015) in relation to the current (2036) events. This would in theory allow Etta to never be lost in 2015, and for her to have grown up with Peter and Olivia as she should have, and the invasion had never happened, thus resulting in her alive and well in 2036.

Anyway that is the way I see it. Not Past-futures, just roads not taken, and potential/possible futures. AKA a fluid future vs fatalism/predetermination. I also see the past timelines not as separate entities that are continuously running, but rather as one single space-time (well technically two since we have a parallel universe set of two) that has been re-written over as you would do a cassette tape, or video tape. In other words only one timeline at a time, with a fluid future. (multiple possible future(s) until a concrete present comes into play)
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:32 am

rtterry3225 wrote:
DarthLocke wrote:This works find too! :D :lol:

Also If you would like add the 5x12 and 5x13 tadbits to the finale thread, go for it! :)

I ended up reading it all...so I guess I will give my two sense

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
I am betting that Michael's visions/beliefs are greater, or more far reaching in knowledge than September's -and his will to go against September's plans are important. The episode title still plays to Peter thematically, while highlighting Michael, since one can argue that Peter needed to live, so that Michael could live, and so that everyone has a better future. (or the opposite)

The problem with the plot is the lack of Michael's origin date and his time line in relation to his existence in this timeline, it's time loop (Brave New World), other Observers already existing in between the 2036-2906 dates, and other time line dates, in relation to the question, is there only one 2609? (which presumably Windmark's 2609 acts as it's own constant parallel reality to the rest of the amber time line, at least in certain spots. Windmark and possibly many of those are aware that he had existed and escaped...and then we have his season 1 appearance to consider...

I still think about Walter in LSD falling to his death at Redan Lake...I think perhaps he will sacrifice himself.

Ultimately if this plot plays out I do not think it erases what happened, but creates a new reality starting with this mystery date till 2906 and ultimately it appears like the future lets go of the past, but in fact, because the history starts in a past-future in which they don't invade another past, you just have a new version of the future. I think there would have to be greater measures from keeping all of the already existing Observers from not coming back to alter the past again. Or lock that 2609 "out", because they have somehow managed to keep this future constant the whole time...but perhaps the season 1-3 time line are the new Observers. and we are witnessing the past still??? Because otherwise nothing has yet to stopped them from existing and manipulating things...


Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
This goes along with what I've always said and thought. That there is no past future, just roads not taken, and or Possible futures. This goes with what September said to Walter in the Firefly episode that (paraphrasing here) There are many possible futures all happening simultaneously, and that he doesn't know which one will ultimately come to pass.

You see the reason the Badservers can exist in this scenario is because their present is so far into the possible future (2609) that probabilities have yet to have collapsed into a concrete present that prevents them from existing. They are at the moment still possible. But it seems that if the plan works, then a set of probabilities will become concrete enough to collapse into a future that the implant Observers never ever exist. So this will retro-actively change the timeline once again since the Badservers had already invaded the past (2015) in relation to the current (2036) events. This would in theory allow Etta to never be lost in 2015, and for her to have grown up with Peter and Olivia as she should have, and the invasion had never happened, thus resulting in her alive and well in 2036.

Anyway that is the way I see it. Not Past-futures, just roads not taken, and potential/possible futures. AKA a fluid future vs fatalism/predetermination. I also see the past timelines not as separate entities that are continuously running, but rather as one single space-time (well technically two since we have a parallel universe set of two) that has been re-written over as you would do a cassette tape, or video tape. In other words only one timeline at a time, with a fluid future. (multiple possible future(s) until a concrete present comes into play)



There are always past futures if there multiple time lines that are unfolding at different times at the same times.

It's a hard thing to make one understand because we think of "future" as a date ahead of where we are, but that is not necessarily true, as if a time line was created from a branch of by a person/people time traveling back and altering it from a certain point within it onward, then the time period in the former time line the time traveler time travels FROM, immediately becomes hi/hers past, and the past date now altered by the time traveler, becomes THE TIME TRAVELER's FUTURE and (with no other time travel pending) so do all the dates that have to exist in the new part/branch off of the time line.

The only way this doesn't work is if you eliminate all other time lines, or limit the time traveler to "his" time line of origin, which then you could either get the Back to the Future method of 'erasing' and continiously altering many parts of the timeline, or there could be course correction that would only let you do so many things in order to maintain itself

From Wiki Many Worlds Interpretation:
The many-worlds interpretation is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse. Many-worlds implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real, each representing an actual "world" (or "universe"). It is also referred to as MWI, the relative state formulation, the Everett interpretation, the theory of the universal wavefunction, many-universes interpretation, or just many-worlds.

In many-worlds, the subjective appearance of wavefunction collapse is explained by the mechanism of quantum decoherence, which resolves all of the correlation paradoxes of quantum theory, such as the EPR paradox[12][13] and Schrödinger's cat,[1] since every possible outcome of every event defines or exists in its own "history" or "world".
In lay terms, there is a very large—perhaps infinite[14]—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.


You have to realize that many possible futures could be happening, or have already happened that just haven't happened to the specific-current you, but that does not mean that they haven't already happen to several other versions of yourself. The ones that have already happened are all "past" in terms of THEIR existence, because YOU are NOT the only thing evolving space and universes are also all moving and if you and your time line are an incarnate (for a lack of a better word) of a previous versions of your time line and your self, and depending on when that other version of yourself and/or the timeline stopped traveling (stopped existing) and a branch off was made, would you then have instances where a previous version of yourself has already existed in "a" 1990, 2000, 2036", before "you" ever have. (Hence the title "back to when you have never been")

Another version of yourself could be existing in 2025 right now, or have already existed in 2025 'so many years/time ago'. The one in 2025 along side you -to you would be parallel and considered "current" the one existing in a previous 2025 has already existed and is past (but it has a future date in relation to when "you" are - so it's a past-future: a history of a future that has already existed)

In Lost many people don't realize that in "Because You Left" John travels to '2007', but the thing is that 2007 in this time line doesn't exist yet (to them "a" future), so he traveled to a past iterations 2007 that ends up repeating itself (whatever happened, happened) in "their" time line...When we get to "Follow the Leader" it becomes clearer that this sudo-time fold has occurred because John is alive (flashing through), dead (in the coffin), and being manipulated/projected by the smoke monster all at the same time and in the same space! This time fold only works if there are past-futures to fill in gaps and come very closely and/or exactly repeat in certain instances to make up the differences for it's over all continous equations of variables. Because he can't time travel back once he is dead.

It's all about when anything exists in relation to when any other thing exists.

Now perhaps what the machine did is eliminate Peter from being able to be in any other time lines that did/do exist and the Observers have locked out all other iterations of the timelines from this amber one, however the RED universe also still exists and should constitute as it's own universe and it's own timeline, which is why there are still other futures already as the red also continues onward. -But in order for the Observers to have some kind of hold, it requires a limitation to the humans of this time line, such as technological advancement.

If I time travel back to 1975, the upcoming 1976+ is now my future. It "might" have been my timelines past, or another time line's past, but it will always be my future, because that is when and where I have yet to go in relation to my own physical/emotional evolution (as my existence/identity is never just about when or where I am, but more about the order of events and my memory of them). However if it was my time line's past, I may have altered to make a brand new future/history from 1975 onward...

September might be able to change to create another outcome, if he can figure out what variables he needs, but again he would have to find a way to gain an upper hand against the other Observers, which maybe by creating a limitation on the blue-amberverse people, they have put a limitation on themselves...
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:37 am

DarthLocke wrote:
rtterry3225 wrote:
DarthLocke wrote:This works find too! :D :lol:

Also If you would like add the 5x12 and 5x13 tadbits to the finale thread, go for it! :)

I ended up reading it all...so I guess I will give my two sense

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
I am betting that Michael's visions/beliefs are greater, or more far reaching in knowledge than September's -and his will to go against September's plans are important. The episode title still plays to Peter thematically, while highlighting Michael, since one can argue that Peter needed to live, so that Michael could live, and so that everyone has a better future. (or the opposite)

The problem with the plot is the lack of Michael's origin date and his time line in relation to his existence in this timeline, it's time loop (Brave New World), other Observers already existing in between the 2036-2906 dates, and other time line dates, in relation to the question, is there only one 2609? (which presumably Windmark's 2609 acts as it's own constant parallel reality to the rest of the amber time line, at least in certain spots. Windmark and possibly many of those are aware that he had existed and escaped...and then we have his season 1 appearance to consider...

I still think about Walter in LSD falling to his death at Redan Lake...I think perhaps he will sacrifice himself.

Ultimately if this plot plays out I do not think it erases what happened, but creates a new reality starting with this mystery date till 2906 and ultimately it appears like the future lets go of the past, but in fact, because the history starts in a past-future in which they don't invade another past, you just have a new version of the future. I think there would have to be greater measures from keeping all of the already existing Observers from not coming back to alter the past again. Or lock that 2609 "out", because they have somehow managed to keep this future constant the whole time...but perhaps the season 1-3 time line are the new Observers. and we are witnessing the past still??? Because otherwise nothing has yet to stopped them from existing and manipulating things...


Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
This goes along with what I've always said and thought. That there is no past future, just roads not taken, and or Possible futures. This goes with what September said to Walter in the Firefly episode that (paraphrasing here) There are many possible futures all happening simultaneously, and that he doesn't know which one will ultimately come to pass.

You see the reason the Badservers can exist in this scenario is because their present is so far into the possible future (2609) that probabilities have yet to have collapsed into a concrete present that prevents them from existing. They are at the moment still possible. But it seems that if the plan works, then a set of probabilities will become concrete enough to collapse into a future that the implant Observers never ever exist. So this will retro-actively change the timeline once again since the Badservers had already invaded the past (2015) in relation to the current (2036) events. This would in theory allow Etta to never be lost in 2015, and for her to have grown up with Peter and Olivia as she should have, and the invasion had never happened, thus resulting in her alive and well in 2036.

Anyway that is the way I see it. Not Past-futures, just roads not taken, and potential/possible futures. AKA a fluid future vs fatalism/predetermination. I also see the past timelines not as separate entities that are continuously running, but rather as one single space-time (well technically two since we have a parallel universe set of two) that has been re-written over as you would do a cassette tape, or video tape. In other words only one timeline at a time, with a fluid future. (multiple possible future(s) until a concrete present comes into play)



There are always past futures if there multiple time lines that are unfolding at different times at the same times.

It's a hard thing to make one understand because we think of "future" as a date ahead of where we are, but that is not necessarily true, as if a time line was created from a branch of by a person/people time traveling back and altering it from a certain point within it onward, then the time period in the former time line the time traveler time travels FROM, immediately becomes hi/hers past, and the past date now altered by the time traveler, becomes THE TIME TRAVELER's FUTURE and (with no other time travel pending) so do all the dates that have to exist in the new part/branch off of the time line.

The only way this doesn't work is if you eliminate all other time lines, or limit the time traveler to "his" time line of origin, which then you could either get the Back to the Future method of 'erasing' and continiously altering many parts of the timeline, or there could be course correction that would only let you do so many things in order to maintain itself

From Wiki Many Worlds Interpretation:
The many-worlds interpretation is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse. Many-worlds implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real, each representing an actual "world" (or "universe"). It is also referred to as MWI, the relative state formulation, the Everett interpretation, the theory of the universal wavefunction, many-universes interpretation, or just many-worlds.

In many-worlds, the subjective appearance of wavefunction collapse is explained by the mechanism of quantum decoherence, which resolves all of the correlation paradoxes of quantum theory, such as the EPR paradox[12][13] and Schrödinger's cat,[1] since every possible outcome of every event defines or exists in its own "history" or "world".
In lay terms, there is a very large—perhaps infinite[14]—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.


You have to realize that many possible futures could be happening, or have already happened that just haven't happened to the specific-current you, but that does not mean that they haven't already happen to several other versions of yourself. The ones that have already happened are all "past" in terms of THEIR existence, because YOU are NOT the only thing evolving space and universes are also all moving and if you and your time line are an incarnate (for a lack of a better word) of a previous versions of your time line and your self, and depending on when that other version of yourself and/or the timeline stopped traveling (stopped existing) and a branch off was made, would you then have instances where a previous version of yourself has already existed in "a" 1990, 2000, 2036", before "you" ever have. (Hence the title "back to when you have never been")

Another version of yourself could be existing in 2025 right now, or have already existed in 2025 'so many years/time ago'. The one in 2025 along side you -to you would be parallel and considered "current" the one existing in a previous 2025 has already existed and is past (but it has a future date in relation to when "you" are - so it's a past-future: a history of a future that has already existed)

In Lost many people don't realize that in "Because You Left" John travels to '2007', but the thing is that 2007 in this time line doesn't exist yet (to them "a" future), so he traveled to a past iterations 2007 that ends up repeating itself (whatever happened, happened) in "their" time line...When we get to "Follow the Leader" it becomes clearer that this sudo-time fold has occurred because John is alive (flashing through), dead (in the coffin), and being manipulated/projected by the smoke monster all at the same time and in the same space! This time fold only works if there are past-futures to fill in gaps and come very closely and/or exactly repeat in certain instances to make up the differences for it's over all continous equations of variables. Because he can't time travel back once he is dead.

It's all about when anything exists in relation to when any other thing exists.

Now perhaps what the machine did is eliminate Peter from being able to be in any other time lines that did/do exist and the Observers have locked out all other iterations of the timelines from this amber one, however the RED universe also still exists and should constitute as it's own universe and it's own timeline, which is why there are still other futures already as the red also continues onward. -But in order for the Observers to have some kind of hold, it requires a limitation to the humans of this time line, such as technological advancement.

If I time travel back to 1975, the upcoming 1976+ is now my future. It "might" have been my timelines past, or another time line's past, but it will always be my future, because that is when and where I have yet to go in relation to my own physical/emotional evolution (as my existence/identity is never just about when or where I am, but more about the order of events and my memory of them). However if it was my time line's past, I may have altered to make a brand new future/history from 1975 onward...

September might be able to change to create another outcome, if he can figure out what variables he needs, but again he would have to find a way to gain an upper hand against the other Observers, which maybe by creating a limitation on the blue-amberverse people, they have put a limitation on themselves...


Don't get me wrong, I totally understand this time-travel theory as it applies to our real life universe (if of course there is such thing as time-travel other than theoretically in our real universe). I also understand it as it applies to LOST. But the thing is; Fringe does not use the same time-travel rules as LOST did, nor does it use our "real life" time-travel theories. It merely borrows from a few different time-travel theories. In the context of what has been shown and spoken of In the narrative of the show. In actuality Fringe has made up its theories on time in its own show universe(s).

LOST was simply What happened, happened. So if you traveled to the past of a given timeline and did anything other that just exist and observe, then you were always present in the past of that timeline, and anything you did contributed to the past of that timeline, forming part of that timeline's history. Like all the Sawyer Dharma stuff and Jack being the actual cause of the incident rather than stopping it like he was trying to do.

Locke (2004),while jumping around, merely saw a bit of the past and it was (pre-crash)Ethan catching him time-jumping that caused Ben to want to find him. He then got to visit the future (2007) of that timeline that he would actually be dead for (since he died in 2004-5 [Locke in the box season 3, and 4 ending]) after he turned the wheel and left. This future (same timeline 2007) is when Richard takes him the compass and says to give it to him the next time John sees him (in 1954?) because Richard (1954) would not recognize him otherwise. He then took Richard (1954) the compass in the past and caused earlier Richard (1954) to see him as special, and caused him to go visit him as a child. Smoke Locke (with real Locke's memories) used (2007) Richard as a pawn to get real Locke (2004) (whom he knew was time-flashing to the future) to take (1954) Richard, his future (2007) self's compass setting up the trap that would allow Smokey to eventually inhabit Locke's body. Had Smoke Locke not done that, then there may not have been a smoke Locke. Anyway that is how it worked in LOST It was a single timeline that had people bouncing around on it, the only person in LOST who got to rewrite timelines was Desmond because he was "Special" This is one of my many faults with the show since it was really never full explained, why he was special but I digress. Back to Fringe.

It the actual narrative of Fringe there are Two universes. Prime and Alternate.

There are two sets of timelines Prime-Blue/Alternate-Red, and Prime-Amber/Alternate-Amber.

Walter, in the aptly titled Episode "The Road Not Taken", Explained to Olivia that every choice we don't make creates an alternate reality wherein we did make that choice or another and so on... (My paraphrase) He is explaining to Olivia why she might have glimpsed one of these Roads not taken. This was NOT the red universe as is commonly misunderstood to be. Clues being the FBI existing, Blonde Olivia being mistaken for what should have been a red headed Olivia, Scarlie with hair No Lincoln, Broyles in a suit etc. Nor was it some other obscure never to be seen again universe. It was actually a possible future AKA alternate reality/Road not Taken/Road never to be taken.

September as I mentioned said that there are many possible futures all running simultaneously but that he did not know which ***ONE*** would come to pass.

This is the way The future of a given timeline works in the narrative of the show. A timeline's future is fluid (many possible roads to take), until a certain road actually is taken making all the other so called futures into roads not taken. Or as I put it earlier
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The badservers are able to exist because they originate from one of these many possible roads to take, very far down that road, and they have the ability to time-travel.


But if
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
Walter takes Michael to a possible future time before the origin of the badservers, then makes the scientist take a road they otherwise would not have taken, (one in which the cortical implant will never be made), then it will make the implanted badservers never exist in the capacity that they currently will have existed
It effectively makes their reality into a road not taken.

Here is how best to look at it, at least for me.

Prime universe-timeline blue, and Alternate universe-timeline Red
Walter crossed over, and kidnapped Peter, and as he brought him back here they almost drowned but September saved them both, allowing Red Peter to live in the Prime universe. This created the opportunity for Prime Olivia to meet red Peter as a child, and unknowingly cross over to the red universe and tell Walternate that Peter was in the Prime universe. This led to the war between the universes, which led to Peter going into the machine and choosing the prime universe. This led to the 2026 corrupted future we saw and eventually led to Walter and Peter sending the machine parts through the wormhole closing the loop. This could have went on and on and on for some umpteen number of times until Peter finally decided to choose balance.

This history was re-written/over-written/erased and replaced however you want to call it.
It was replaces with this:

Prime universe-timeline Amber, Alternate universe-timeline Amber
On this one there was a change made by a time-traveler (September) coupled with a change made by a player (Peter bridging the two parallel universes together) These were the engines used to eliminate one timeline for a new one. September decided not to save Peter in this rewrite, and by not saving Peter, he prevented Olivia from ever meeting him as a child and in doing so also prevented her from going over there and telling Walternate about his son, he was able to effectively accept the death of his son, and he and his Elizabeth were much closer for it. Amber Walternate was much more well adjusted than Red Walternate was. When Walternate turned on his machine it entangled to the prime's machine, and allowed the balance Peter had already chosen to bridge the universes together. It was at this moment when Walternate realized what happened to his son. then yadda yadda until the invasion and now 2036.
(The blue and red are gone they are replaced they are NOT floating around in the ether, they are only a memory for Peter and Prime Olivia now. They effectively never happened to the world at large.)

One timeline for each of the two universes at a time. Many possible futures for each of the two universes. That is how it is. Going on what the narrative has shown us. The narrative has not shown us infinite futures, and infinite pasts that are still going on.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:37 pm

rtterry3225 wrote:
DarthLocke wrote:
rtterry3225 wrote:
DarthLocke wrote:This works find too! :D :lol:

Also If you would like add the 5x12 and 5x13 tadbits to the finale thread, go for it! :)

I ended up reading it all...so I guess I will give my two sense

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
I am betting that Michael's visions/beliefs are greater, or more far reaching in knowledge than September's -and his will to go against September's plans are important. The episode title still plays to Peter thematically, while highlighting Michael, since one can argue that Peter needed to live, so that Michael could live, and so that everyone has a better future. (or the opposite)

The problem with the plot is the lack of Michael's origin date and his time line in relation to his existence in this timeline, it's time loop (Brave New World), other Observers already existing in between the 2036-2906 dates, and other time line dates, in relation to the question, is there only one 2609? (which presumably Windmark's 2609 acts as it's own constant parallel reality to the rest of the amber time line, at least in certain spots. Windmark and possibly many of those are aware that he had existed and escaped...and then we have his season 1 appearance to consider...

I still think about Walter in LSD falling to his death at Redan Lake...I think perhaps he will sacrifice himself.

Ultimately if this plot plays out I do not think it erases what happened, but creates a new reality starting with this mystery date till 2906 and ultimately it appears like the future lets go of the past, but in fact, because the history starts in a past-future in which they don't invade another past, you just have a new version of the future. I think there would have to be greater measures from keeping all of the already existing Observers from not coming back to alter the past again. Or lock that 2609 "out", because they have somehow managed to keep this future constant the whole time...but perhaps the season 1-3 time line are the new Observers. and we are witnessing the past still??? Because otherwise nothing has yet to stopped them from existing and manipulating things...


Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
This goes along with what I've always said and thought. That there is no past future, just roads not taken, and or Possible futures. This goes with what September said to Walter in the Firefly episode that (paraphrasing here) There are many possible futures all happening simultaneously, and that he doesn't know which one will ultimately come to pass.

You see the reason the Badservers can exist in this scenario is because their present is so far into the possible future (2609) that probabilities have yet to have collapsed into a concrete present that prevents them from existing. They are at the moment still possible. But it seems that if the plan works, then a set of probabilities will become concrete enough to collapse into a future that the implant Observers never ever exist. So this will retro-actively change the timeline once again since the Badservers had already invaded the past (2015) in relation to the current (2036) events. This would in theory allow Etta to never be lost in 2015, and for her to have grown up with Peter and Olivia as she should have, and the invasion had never happened, thus resulting in her alive and well in 2036.

Anyway that is the way I see it. Not Past-futures, just roads not taken, and potential/possible futures. AKA a fluid future vs fatalism/predetermination. I also see the past timelines not as separate entities that are continuously running, but rather as one single space-time (well technically two since we have a parallel universe set of two) that has been re-written over as you would do a cassette tape, or video tape. In other words only one timeline at a time, with a fluid future. (multiple possible future(s) until a concrete present comes into play)



There are always past futures if there multiple time lines that are unfolding at different times at the same times.

It's a hard thing to make one understand because we think of "future" as a date ahead of where we are, but that is not necessarily true, as if a time line was created from a branch of by a person/people time traveling back and altering it from a certain point within it onward, then the time period in the former time line the time traveler time travels FROM, immediately becomes hi/hers past, and the past date now altered by the time traveler, becomes THE TIME TRAVELER's FUTURE and (with no other time travel pending) so do all the dates that have to exist in the new part/branch off of the time line.

The only way this doesn't work is if you eliminate all other time lines, or limit the time traveler to "his" time line of origin, which then you could either get the Back to the Future method of 'erasing' and continiously altering many parts of the timeline, or there could be course correction that would only let you do so many things in order to maintain itself

From Wiki Many Worlds Interpretation:
The many-worlds interpretation is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse. Many-worlds implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real, each representing an actual "world" (or "universe"). It is also referred to as MWI, the relative state formulation, the Everett interpretation, the theory of the universal wavefunction, many-universes interpretation, or just many-worlds.

In many-worlds, the subjective appearance of wavefunction collapse is explained by the mechanism of quantum decoherence, which resolves all of the correlation paradoxes of quantum theory, such as the EPR paradox[12][13] and Schrödinger's cat,[1] since every possible outcome of every event defines or exists in its own "history" or "world".
In lay terms, there is a very large—perhaps infinite[14]—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes.


You have to realize that many possible futures could be happening, or have already happened that just haven't happened to the specific-current you, but that does not mean that they haven't already happen to several other versions of yourself. The ones that have already happened are all "past" in terms of THEIR existence, because YOU are NOT the only thing evolving space and universes are also all moving and if you and your time line are an incarnate (for a lack of a better word) of a previous versions of your time line and your self, and depending on when that other version of yourself and/or the timeline stopped traveling (stopped existing) and a branch off was made, would you then have instances where a previous version of yourself has already existed in "a" 1990, 2000, 2036", before "you" ever have. (Hence the title "back to when you have never been")

Another version of yourself could be existing in 2025 right now, or have already existed in 2025 'so many years/time ago'. The one in 2025 along side you -to you would be parallel and considered "current" the one existing in a previous 2025 has already existed and is past (but it has a future date in relation to when "you" are - so it's a past-future: a history of a future that has already existed)

In Lost many people don't realize that in "Because You Left" John travels to '2007', but the thing is that 2007 in this time line doesn't exist yet (to them "a" future), so he traveled to a past iterations 2007 that ends up repeating itself (whatever happened, happened) in "their" time line...When we get to "Follow the Leader" it becomes clearer that this sudo-time fold has occurred because John is alive (flashing through), dead (in the coffin), and being manipulated/projected by the smoke monster all at the same time and in the same space! This time fold only works if there are past-futures to fill in gaps and come very closely and/or exactly repeat in certain instances to make up the differences for it's over all continous equations of variables. Because he can't time travel back once he is dead.

It's all about when anything exists in relation to when any other thing exists.

Now perhaps what the machine did is eliminate Peter from being able to be in any other time lines that did/do exist and the Observers have locked out all other iterations of the timelines from this amber one, however the RED universe also still exists and should constitute as it's own universe and it's own timeline, which is why there are still other futures already as the red also continues onward. -But in order for the Observers to have some kind of hold, it requires a limitation to the humans of this time line, such as technological advancement.

If I time travel back to 1975, the upcoming 1976+ is now my future. It "might" have been my timelines past, or another time line's past, but it will always be my future, because that is when and where I have yet to go in relation to my own physical/emotional evolution (as my existence/identity is never just about when or where I am, but more about the order of events and my memory of them). However if it was my time line's past, I may have altered to make a brand new future/history from 1975 onward...

September might be able to change to create another outcome, if he can figure out what variables he needs, but again he would have to find a way to gain an upper hand against the other Observers, which maybe by creating a limitation on the blue-amberverse people, they have put a limitation on themselves...


Don't get me wrong, I totally understand this time-travel theory as it applies to our real life universe (if of course there is such thing as time-travel other than theoretically in our real universe). I also understand it as it applies to LOST. But the thing is; Fringe does not use the same time-travel rules as LOST did, nor does it use our "real life" time-travel theories. It merely borrows from a few different time-travel theories. In the context of what has been shown and spoken of In the narrative of the show. In actuality Fringe has made up its theories on time in its own show universe(s).

LOST was simply What happened, happened. So if you traveled to the past of a given timeline and did anything other that just exist and observe, then you were always present in the past of that timeline, and anything you did contributed to the past of that timeline, forming part of that timeline's history. Like all the Sawyer Dharma stuff and Jack being the actual cause of the incident rather than stopping it like he was trying to do.

Locke (2004),while jumping around, merely saw a bit of the past and it was (pre-crash)Ethan catching him time-jumping that caused Ben to want to find him. He then got to visit the future (2007) of that timeline that he would actually be dead for (since he died in 2004-5 [Locke in the box season 3, and 4 ending]) after he turned the wheel and left. This future (same timeline 2007) is when Richard takes him the compass and says to give it to him the next time John sees him (in 1954?) because Richard (1954) would not recognize him otherwise. He then took Richard (1954) the compass in the past and caused earlier Richard (1954) to see him as special, and caused him to go visit him as a child. Smoke Locke (with real Locke's memories) used (2007) Richard as a pawn to get real Locke (2004) (whom he knew was time-flashing to the future) to take (1954) Richard, his future (2007) self's compass setting up the trap that would allow Smokey to eventually inhabit Locke's body. Had Smoke Locke not done that, then there may not have been a smoke Locke. Anyway that is how it worked in LOST It was a single timeline that had people bouncing around on it, the only person in LOST who got to rewrite timelines was Desmond because he was "Special" This is one of my many faults with the show since it was really never full explained, why he was special but I digress. Back to Fringe.

It the actual narrative of Fringe there are Two universes. Prime and Alternate.

There are two sets of timelines Prime-Blue/Alternate-Red, and Prime-Amber/Alternate-Amber.

Walter, in the aptly titled Episode "The Road Not Taken", Explained to Olivia that every choice we don't make creates an alternate reality wherein we did make that choice or another and so on... (My paraphrase) He is explaining to Olivia why she might have glimpsed one of these Roads not taken. This was NOT the red universe as is commonly misunderstood to be. Clues being the FBI existing, Blonde Olivia being mistaken for what should have been a red headed Olivia, Scarlie with hair No Lincoln, Broyles in a suit etc. Nor was it some other obscure never to be seen again universe. It was actually a possible future AKA alternate reality/Road not Taken/Road never to be taken.

September as I mentioned said that there are many possible futures all running simultaneously but that he did not know which ***ONE*** would come to pass.

This is the way The future of a given timeline works in the narrative of the show. A timeline's future is fluid (many possible roads to take), until a certain road actually is taken making all the other so called futures into roads not taken. Or as I put it earlier
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The badservers are able to exist because they originate from one of these many possible roads to take, very far down that road, and they have the ability to time-travel.


But if
Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
Walter takes Michael to a possible future time before the origin of the badservers, then makes the scientist take a road they otherwise would not have taken, (one in which the cortical implant will never be made), then it will make the implanted badservers never exist in the capacity that they currently will have existed
It effectively makes their reality into a road not taken.

Here is how best to look at it, at least for me.

Prime universe-timeline blue, and Alternate universe-timeline Red
Walter crossed over, and kidnapped Peter, and as he brought him back here they almost drowned but September saved them both, allowing Red Peter to live in the Prime universe. This created the opportunity for Prime Olivia to meet red Peter as a child, and unknowingly cross over to the red universe and tell Walternate that Peter was in the Prime universe. This led to the war between the universes, which led to Peter going into the machine and choosing the prime universe. This led to the 2026 corrupted future we saw and eventually led to Walter and Peter sending the machine parts through the wormhole closing the loop. This could have went on and on and on for some umpteen number of times until Peter finally decided to choose balance.

This history was re-written/over-written/erased and replaced however you want to call it.
It was replaces with this:

Prime universe-timeline Amber, Alternate universe-timeline Amber
On this one there was a change made by a time-traveler (September) coupled with a change made by a player (Peter bridging the two parallel universes together) These were the engines used to eliminate one timeline for a new one. September decided not to save Peter in this rewrite, and by not saving Peter, he prevented Olivia from ever meeting him as a child and in doing so also prevented her from going over there and telling Walternate about his son, he was able to effectively except the death of his son, and he and his Elizabeth were much closer for it. Amber Walternate was much more well adjusted than Red Walternate was. When Walternate turned on his machine it entangled to the prime's machine, and allowed the balance Peter had already chosen to bridge the universes together. It was at this moment when Walternate realized what happened to his son. then yadda yadda until the invasion and now 2036.
(The blue and red are gone they are replaced they are NOT floating around in the ether, they are only a memory for Peter and Prime Olivia now. They effectively never happened to the world at large.)

One timeline for each of the two universes at a time. Many possible futures for each of the two universes. That is how it is. Going on what the narrative has shown us. The narrative has not shown us infinite futures, and infinite pasts that are still going on.



Disagree...The Day We Died + Peter and the Machine's idea is the equivalent to Lost's variables sets (the characters that go to the 1970's) always time traveling back to the "a" 1970's that allows them a type of fresh existences there (because they do not time travel on top of each other/themselves -Same as every Peter and/or First Person who takes back the machine parts in various time periods (as again he doesn't cross paths with the ones that already has done it) But Peter and the Machine actually just explains what has happened in a previous time line (because you see that is how the machine parts get in ours-->-from another) through another Peter's memories = Desmond's "The Constant" and experiencing memories (conscience time traveling to other timelines - your conscience takes over another's) of another Desmond from another timeline's 1996 because they "network" a special way. This is why I believe HIC was in a Peter-esque role in the amber's 2036-era, because Peter is in a Desmond role (and FRINGE is not only like watching Lost from the perspective of the DI, but it is also like making Desmond and Penny's LOVE story front and center while actually letting us know about the multi-universe and iterations of them.)

In The Road Not Taken Olivia travels/slips into the role of another blue Olivia where the Lewis/Pratt case is different than the one she is experiencing/or is frome. It's unclear that if this iteration is "along side" or a previous one, but in order for her to experience it either has to, or had to exist. IMO it is a previous one, just like "The Day We Died", because it ends up showing is something "progressive" as [this] Olivia can save one of the twins this time, where both where already dead in the other parallel blue universe.

Cassimir Effect they way they are presented works because there are futures (really a better word is histories) that both have yet to exist, co-exist, and have already existed simulatamously. So Eliose can run the maze and info to run the maze because she recieved conscience information of an Eliose who has ALREADY run the maze. Our Olivia know about the child Observer because her conscience was brought forward and she wiped out, killed, or exchanged places with the new Olivia, but technecally Peter and Olivia are from another timeline...one that ALREADY existed. Joel Wyman said is possible that their time line is still "out there", but rather for all intended purposes this was going to be Peter's (and by extension) Olivia's new "home"

This may be FRINGE for Dummies-type question, but as we dive deeper into Peter trying to return to his timeline, does the old timeline co-exist with the new one in different locations like a quasi-universe? Is it actually a location he can go to?
JP: Well, certainly, Peter is under the belief and his drive has been — he is under the belief that his timeline exists and he’s trying to get back to it. Now, the idea of the timeline, it’s not the same as a [new] universe, but it’s sort of synonymous.
JW: In this version of history, he does not exist. Are there are other versions? You’ll have to wait to find out.
So it’s not like technically Olivia and Walter are at the machine, somewhere, in another timeline, wondering where Peter went?
JP: It’s certainly possible. That’s what Peter believes.
JW: It’s possible. You’ll have to wait and see. It will become clear.
It will become clear in upcoming episodes or more towards the end of the season?
JW: I think in upcoming episodes, you’ll start to see the real picture of what happened and how he has to get home.
http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/2012/02/02/fringes-jeff-pinkner-and-j-h-wyman-answers-are-coming-very-soon-plus-teases-for-the-astrid-centric-hour-episode-19-and-more/


Now later, I know Pinkner said it's rewritten, but you can't pull a person's conscience forward (conscience = series of memories) unless that conscience exists "somewhere". Going with the video tape analology, it may be that all blues are "on top of" all blues (same as red) and so traveling to the previous existing ones might be "hard" (hence why In "The Day We Died" Past-future Walter explains they can't just stop the machine from being taken back)


In Abrams Star Trek (something that is referenced in Fringe- The Road Not Taken) The time line were Spock prime and Nero come from still exists and is moving onward, they just created a branch off. Time travel doesn't always = death of a universe or a reality, just a change to create another. (reciprocity) And it all relies on methods, dynamics/condintions, and semantics to determine truth.

The reason you can't always predict the future is because in ANY case there are too many variables (especially if there is multiple universe and iterations of them-creating them) and to many histories (past-futures, currents, and new futures) There is more than one of Everything (unless you have a way to create a limit)

When you get into the infinite or near infinite aspect - your going to have universes of histories that will be exactly the same in certain parts if you were able to compare them. But not all reality/history is "current" or parallel and you can get into situations where one might see, glimpse, experience of a future date that has already happened (because in order to see it has to exist "somewhere", "somewhen" because these are all memories aka Deja Vu), but one may never know for sure if that future will come to pass [again] for me or for my time line, but it might have already for another version of me and her time line

My issue the Observers is that depending on just how many there are, do they have the capacity to effect and access any time in any time line that exists, or has ever existed, so controlling them seems a problem, since any one of them could be any-when, unless they somehow boxed themselves into a corner...(chess board)

I would agree that amber time line is somehow special because it has shown a different set of quantum mechanics compared to our season1-3 iteration in terms if just being able to unlink the machines without a hitch, in terms of the Observers being able to lock down the time line at certain points (especially 2609) so one one but them can travel to any-when else. Perhaps the time line is also Desmond-esque like in "Because You Left", where it can uniquely add additionally memory from anywhen onto itself (that seems to be what Michael does for Walter)

Our narritve has not only have been two timelines

season 1-3 Blue
season 1-3 Red
Season 3 finale - past future/history "The day We Died" (2026) + Peter & Machine -past-future/history various time periods (how machine parts become apart of ours = from the future of a pre-exiting time line that was dying)
Road Not Taken - another blue
Season 4/5 -Blue
Season 4/5- Red
Season 4 Brave New World implies Loop in progress so we have a history within itself that we can not see the way it was before it was altered by September.
Season 2 White Tulip = 3 min iterations of the blue universe

And technically every single aspect of life is it's own reality since a branch off would, will, has occurred at any given point, and thus every time is it's own reality.

It's "which history" will come to pass at "which point" in "which timeline", Rick. The red universe(s) existences alone provide alternate history (past present and future) that co-exists to ours. Their future exists too. There is not just one future, or one history. The word future is relative.

You do not understand that I am not disagreeing with you in terms of futures coming to pass (i agree whole heartedly with Septmeber's Firefly speech because this is "uncertainty principal"), but rather futures/histories that have already have come to pass in other timeline can relate to other timelines, because in some cases, like with Fringe, that is how they are made (like offspring). It just might be that in some cases those time lines might not be possible to get back to with out certain technology, but it doesn't mean that they don't or can't still exist somewhere...

my issue is that this plan would require being able to lock down Observers, because otherwise they could exist in other time lines and come back to just create more alterations again. The only way this plan would work is that Septmeber and/or Michaels trajectory skills are beyond the other Observers and/or all the Observers exist in this timeline between these dates that will create "some kind of" alternate reality. Otherwise they could still be out there, because they originally could exit anywhere....

I am most curious about our two beacons, because some how this tech was not only designed as a navigation device, but also it can lock Observers out of time lines/time periods...

In fact I am going to guess that although what ever time line the characters end in/with shows a happy "time period"...I'm willing to bet there will be something that proves that it's only over for "here and now in relation to them", but not for others elsewhere. -Because "it" (life- the will of the universe) is about the experience and learning from it. And the show, like Lost, wanted to tell a story about these people and what it took them to get to a certain destination...a better place.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:35 pm

If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying:

(1)
A__2013__________________________________B__2036________________________C 2609-------->D 3000
(2)
_______________<--------------------------------Invasion pastward time-travel-------------|
_______________|--New History-------------------------------------------------------------------|----------> E 3000 A__2013______D 2015_____________________B_2036__________________________C 2609


Anything past either C is an uncertain future

(1) is original virgin timeline. A begets B, begets C. begets D etc......
(2) is time-travel tainted timeline. A-->D-->B-->C-->E (linearly)
To the time traveler it would be A-->B-->C-->D--.E

If I'm understanding you, the D(1) is a past future and E(2) is the current future. OK I agree.

What I'm saying is that it makes no difference in Fringe because for our characters, D(1) is dead and gone. it has been replaced by E(2). If the plan works it'll be replaced again by a theoretical F(3), or actually will revert back to another D but(3) since there will never be any pastward time-travel/invasion.


The Physical plane of the timeline and the physical people living on that plane are ALWAYS the same. History just re-writes itself around them. So technically it isn't timeline (1) Timeline (2) it is more like history (1) and history (2). History (2) does not overlap or co-exist with History(1) it replaces it altogether.

The difference in LOST was that History (2) /as it relates to my example here\ was always what happened. There were two Jacks in 1974 One on the island having just arrived from the future, and one as a child getting beat up for his best friend. Same goes for Sawyer, One on the island having come from the future and acting as LeFlour, while the Other was witnessing his father kill his mother and commit suicide. And so on with all the other time-displaced characters.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:56 am

rtterry3225 wrote:If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying:

(1)
A__2013__________________________________B__2036________________________C 2609-------->D 3000
(2)
_______________<--------------------------------Invasion pastward time-travel-------------|
_______________|--New History-------------------------------------------------------------------|----------> E 3000 A__2013______D 2015_____________________B_2036__________________________C 2609


Anything past either C is an uncertain future

(1) is original virgin timeline. A begets B, begets C. begets D etc......
(2) is time-travel tainted timeline. A-->D-->B-->C-->E (linearly)
To the time traveler it would be A-->B-->C-->D--.E

If I'm understanding you, the D(1) is a past future and E(2) is the current future. OK I agree.

What I'm saying is that it makes no difference in Fringe because for our characters, D(1) is dead and gone. it has been replaced by E(2). If the plan works it'll be replaced again by a theoretical F(3), or actually will revert back to another D but(3) since there will never be any pastward time-travel/invasion.


First for Michael to give Walter another Walter's memories implies that somewhere these memories (history) can never be lost. This is the same idea with William Bell invading Olivia's body post his corporeal death, and for season 1-3 blue Olivia's conscience to be able to replace the blue-amber's. (By doing this the writers are at the very least saying there has to be a place, most likely ethereal (collective conscience), in which all memories (histories) that have ever existed are preserved...other wise our characters couldn't see them, trade vessels, and get someone else's memories, even memories from other time lines...)

For whatever reason, for the sake of our story, yes, it seems our characters can not go back there (s1-3 timeline or before). But in the bigger reality (truth of the matter), because of what I said in that first paragraph, and because in a multiple universe dynamic, there would be spots in various histories that would be identical, and depending on which piece of history existed first, would then some piece of history be past, present, future in comparison to other pieces in any given time line, could all realities still exist, despite not being able to "get to them".


Lets say I exist in a linear fashion until 2015 then I time travel back in "my" time lines 1970's. If there are no course correctors or technology interfering, then I have potentional to create an new time (because now it may be altered with my presence, knowledge, ect from 1970 on.

My time lines future can still be going on without me, but my future now lies in my time line's past, except now I altered it and created a new twig/branch of another --but it is still "my" future. My timeline's (the one I derived from) 2015 will always have existed before the new time line I made's 2015 (and assuming they are traveling at the same speed) by 45 years apart. In any case there is no garentee that the 2015's are going to the same, but it could become more probable/predictable if many versions of myself, at the same points in the time lines, keep time traveling to the same 1970 (loops could be like creating predominant strand of DNA)

Then there is this sanario:

Lets say there are three parallel universes that co-exist alongside each other and they are generally parallel in the sense of time, places, and people who can exist in them (like Fringe's red and blue)

Universe A & B my existence in them could be exactly the same all the way until I turn 20. Then they start to have differences and appear alternate compared to each other. Timeline C presents something more alternate compared to the other 2 versions of me in A and B for the first 20 years of the C-version of myself's life, but when C-version turns 20, it becomes exact to B's....

In Many World's theory every combination should eventually exist. That's why there would be no paradoxes. And you would get many instances where bits of reality "here" might repeat "there" and then maybe again "way after here" Everyone is dead and alive dying/living every single way possible to represents all roads not taken. -But there could be limitations like some reality has tech that course corrects and maintains control, or a certain family of universes has special dynamic in which limitations are placed (like a disease, virus, some kind of mechanical break down), or like OUAT where the realites all have a different set of quantum mechanical properties...

This why Lost presented Alternate reality games (Lost experience, Via Domis) and Fringe alternate reality comics, because it's a way to tell us that there is "more" out there Beyond the scope of our shows...

-------------

In terms of Fringe's history we have something like this

Pre- Season 1-3 blue Timeline(s) - 2009 (Road Not Taken) and "a" pre-existing 2026 (The Day We Died/Peter and the Machine)...Red universe died prior to 2026...blue universe in process of dying in 2026.

We have season 1-3 timelines Blue and Red to 2011. Peter is forced to use the machine. Gets memories from a previous Peter. Sees previous iteration and how machine parts got to his iteration and that this has happened many times, implying several iterations have existed prior to Peter's time line and the other Peter and September urge him to make a different choice. He does. He comes back to bridge made in 2011, but disappears...

Season 4 begins in 2011. Somehow the bridge is made with out Peter, because Peter never existed in this time line...until he suddenly materializes. We go on, wiping out/replacing the new blue Olivia with the previous version "Peter's"...then suddenly we get to "A Brave New World" and we get wind that the current September is really not current, because a future September comes back from some undisclosed future date to warn Olivia, suggesting he is trying to change the time line...so there for the time line we see is the altered one, implying there was another version of it... (we have to remember that Observers have past present and futures too and that's super tricky when they can travel to any time period of any time line available to them and that they probably rarely exist in linear fashion long...)

The issues lie in that
1. We know in the amber time line the Observers seem to primarily reside in 2609. -But we do not know if this is where they have always derived...is this the 2609 of their original time line of their origin? -Because according to Peter and the Machine for many time lines do both the red and blue universe die due to a Peter choosing one side over the other...and it's hard to say if "when" is the same in all time lines, but it seems implausable that they would make it to 2609. So, then how do the Observers keep existing if both universes kept dying???

2. Just because they reside in "a" 2609, doesn't mean they derive from there. And your source information seems to imply there is another "key" origin date before that, but this only makes sense if this is the time line they originate from, because we know they can exist in just about any part of any time...since they existed in the time lines that came before. Unless they constantly come to exist differently...(which then makes the plan even harder to believe)

3. Our characters seem not to be able to go back to any previous iteration, but we do not know if the Observers can or can't? In "A short story about love" September was locked out of the time line...so what does that mean? -What in this case constitutes a time line? Where or when was he if he couldn't be "there" and if the other time lines (except for this other amber-red) are gone? That's why I am wondering if they found a way to preserve a section of their original history like 2015-2609 and made it into their own time line, but it still doesn't explain how Peter and Olivia end up here, unless September networked them back into the equation some how and that even the amberverse might have existed before and acts as a time line that can be more heavily re-written upon??
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:12 am

My issue the Observers is that depending on just how many there are, do they have the capacity to effect and access any time in any time line that exists, or has ever existed, so controlling them seems a problem, since any one of them could be any-when, unless they somehow boxed themselves into a corner...(chess board)

my issue is that this plan would require being able to lock down Observers, because otherwise they could exist in other time lines and come back to just create more alterations again. The only way this plan would work is that September and/or Michaels trajectory skills are beyond the other Observers and/or all the Observers exist in this timeline between these dates that will create "some kind of" alternate reality. Otherwise they could still be out there, because they originally could exit anywhere....

I am most curious about our two beacons, because some how this tech was not only designed as a navigation device, but also it can lock Observers out of time lines/time periods...


Again this is where Septembers quote to Walter in The Firefly about the nature of possible futures is quite literally in play here.

Also In September's mind, he told Peter that he was human, but from many years into a possible future. We now know that this was sometime between now and 2609. Right?

So at some unknown time between these dates There was an Origin for the Observers. Lets say for the sake of this explanation that it was in 2400.

OK so we have this:

Out of the great big number of possible future that are still possible at the moment one of those futures in the year 2400 had a moment that was the origin for the Observers.

Between this Origin moment in 2400 until the Moment in this same possible future's timeline that a decision to invade their timeline's 2015 past was made (in 2609), the Observers developed Time-Travel. Correct?

Ok because the still possible future (2609) has access to time-travel, and they decided to use it to travel to the past to Observe the origins of their timeline (big bang moment onward), and then subsequently invade the past (2015), then their existence here is hinging on the notion that their possible future continues to exist in relation to the present of this timeline (current 2036). That means at the moment it is still a possible future. So in order to eliminate the invaders, we need to take steps to prevent that possible future from even being able to exist. How do we do that?

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
We build a time machine, and we take Michael (who is a super intelligent post modern human that still has emotions and has abilities like his evil counterparts, but without the evil implants) to 2400, (wherein the origin of his evil counterparts sprang into existence), and explain to the 2400 scientists that if they go through with their plans they will, in effect, be ruining not only the future, but also their past, and that it could effect their existence. Then we would convince them to instead study this amazing child, and adjust their planned genetic experiments to replicate only his type, and to forego the implant tech. This will extinguish the evil observers, because it will destroy their genesis/origins. This in effect will make the possible future they existed from, not be possible anymore. Also effectively erasing the invasion of 2015, thus allowing Etta to grow up with her parents, and for this 2036 to be re-written.


This is what the spoilers are suggesting.


The issues lie in that
1. We know in the amber time line the Observers seem to primarily reside in 2609. -But we do not know if this is where they have always derived...is this the 2609 of their original time line of their origin? -Because according to Peter and the Machine for many time lines do both the red and blue universe die due to a Peter choosing one side over the other...and it's hard to say if "when" is the same in all time lines, but it seems implausible that they would make it to 2609. So, then how do the Observers keep existing if both universes kept dying???

2. Just because they reside in "a" 2609, doesn't mean they derive from there. And your source information seems to imply there is another "key" origin date before that, but this only makes sense if this is the time line they originate from, because we know they can exist in just about any part of any time...since they existed in the time lines that came before. Unless they constantly come to exist differently...(which then makes the plan even harder to believe)

3. Our characters seem not to be able to go back to any previous iteration, but we do not know if the Observers can or can't? In "A short story about love" September was locked out of the time line...so what does that mean? -What in this case constitutes a time line? Where or when was he if he couldn't be "there" and if the other time lines (except for this other amber-red) are gone? That's why I am wondering if they found a way to preserve a section of their original history like 2015-2609 and made it into their own time line, but it still doesn't explain how Peter and Olivia end up here, unless September networked them back into the equation some how and that even the amberverse might have existed before and acts as a time line that can be more heavily re-written upon??



1 and 2 are answered in my above explanation.

3. You said in this paragraph:
"A short story about love" September was locked out of the time line...so what does that mean? -What in this case constitutes a time line? Where or when was he if he couldn't be "there" and if the other time lines (except for this other amber-red) are gone?


This is inaccurate. The other Observers locked September out of this universe not timeline. The beacon allowed him to relocate this universe and be able to reappear back into it.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:44 am

rtterry3225 wrote:
My issue the Observers is that depending on just how many there are, do they have the capacity to effect and access any time in any time line that exists, or has ever existed, so controlling them seems a problem, since any one of them could be any-when, unless they somehow boxed themselves into a corner...(chess board)

my issue is that this plan would require being able to lock down Observers, because otherwise they could exist in other time lines and come back to just create more alterations again. The only way this plan would work is that September and/or Michaels trajectory skills are beyond the other Observers and/or all the Observers exist in this timeline between these dates that will create "some kind of" alternate reality. Otherwise they could still be out there, because they originally could exit anywhere....

I am most curious about our two beacons, because some how this tech was not only designed as a navigation device, but also it can lock Observers out of time lines/time periods...


Again this is where Septembers quote to Walter in The Firefly about the nature of possible futures is quite literally in play here.

Also In September's mind, he told Peter that he was human, but from many years into a possible future. We now know that this was sometime between now and 2609. Right?

So at some unknown time between these dates There was an Origin for the Observers. Lets say for the sake of this explanation that it was in 2400.

OK so we have this:

Out of the great big number of possible future that are still possible at the moment one of those futures in the year 2400 had a moment that was the origin for the Observers.

Between this Origin moment in 2400 until the Moment in this same possible future's timeline that a decision to invade their timeline's 2015 past was made (in 2609), the Observers developed Time-Travel. Correct?

Ok because the still possible future (2609) has access to time-travel, and they decided to use it to travel to the past to Observe the origins of their timeline (big bang moment onward), and then subsequently invade the past (2015), then their existence here is hinging on the notion that their possible future continues to exist in relation to the present of this timeline (current 2036). That means at the moment it is still a possible future. So in order to eliminate the invaders, we need to take steps to prevent that possible future from even being able to exist. How do we do that?

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
We build a time machine, and we take Michael (who is a super intelligent post modern human that still has emotions and has abilities like his evil counterparts, but without the evil implants) to 2400, (wherein the origin of his evil counterparts sprang into existence), and explain to the 2400 scientists that if they go through with their plans they will, in effect, be ruining not only the future, but also their past, and that it could effect their existence. Then we would convince them to instead study this amazing child, and adjust their planned genetic experiments to replicate only his type, and to forego the implant tech. This will extinguish the evil observers, because it will destroy their genesis/origins. This in effect will make the possible future they existed from, not be possible anymore. Also effectively erasing the invasion of 2015, thus allowing Etta to grow up with her parents, and for this 2036 to be re-written.


This is what the spoilers are suggesting.



I don't know how to help u understand me. It's about the chicken and the egg....The issue is that the Observers exist prior to the amber blue and red time lines. --They exist in season 1+. If the time lines keep getting destroyed @ 2026 mark (The Day We Died), then how do they still exist if the amber time line is truly after/created from the first three seasons (and iterations prior) They wouldn't unless they preserved it and it was once their origin time line and that is all that is left.

You can't say the machine destroys everything, but oh the Observers some how still exist as they always have, when everything else comes to exist differently. For the Observers to still exist means there time(s) of origin do not get destroyed/altered, other wise the amber time line should have also cancled them out or have created "new ones" (which is ironically what this plan is suppose to do), but for it not to have happened yet, means that this time period they exist/originate from could never be eliminated until now and it's a time line that had to exist prior to ours, in order for them to ever be in it, considering for many iterations the time lines die way before 2400...

Do you understand, where/when do the Observers come from in season 1-3 if seasons 1-3 only exists to 2011?????? It only makes sense if it is a certain part of the amber time line that also already co-exists with the season 1-3 time lines...That is why I think the machine spat Peter out there, rather than the machine made a brand new time line...
This 2400-2609 has to exist somewhere all the time in order for the exact same Observers to exist continiously in every time line.

Future is synonymous with history. (it's only called a future because of it's date. to our characters it is the future, but if the Observers live there it is their current. ) but if you think about Observers being created and there existence in the series, then you have to realize that that DATE OF ORIGIN pre-exists even prior to season 1.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:28 am

I don't know how to help u understand me. It's about the chicken and the egg....The issue is that the Observers exist prior to the amber blue and red time lines. --They exist in season 1+. If the time lines keep getting destroyed @ 2026 mark (The Day We Died), then how do they still exist if the amber time line is truly after/created from the first three seasons (and iterations prior) They wouldn't unless they preserved it and it was once their origin time line and that is all that is left.


The timeline was in a loop, thus it was preserved. It never got destroyed completely since The machine parts were sent back through the central park wormhole. That was the endpoint of the loop, the beginning is the paleolithic period. The divergence that allowed the parallel universe to come into being happened after the paleolithic period since the machine existed in both universes. Does this make sense to you? Please say yes! :)

Due to this there was still a possible future for the Observers to come from. Please understand this too.


You can't say the machine destroys everything, but oh the Observers some how still exist as they always have, when everything else comes to exist differently. For the Observers to still exist means there time(s) of origin do not get destroyed/altered, other wise the amber time line should have also canceled them out or have created "new ones" (which is ironically what this plan is suppose to do), but for it not to have happened yet, means that this time period they exist/originate from could never be eliminated until now and it's a time line that had to exist prior to ours, in order for them to ever be in it, considering for many iterations the time lines die way before 2400...


As you see in my last answer the machine did not fully get to ever destroy everything. Since the timeline was in a loop. Had the loop not been put in place then yes the Observers would cease to exist as well, but then none of this would matter. The timeline becomes corrupted for the invasion and the Observers so they had September erase Peter. To un-corrupt the timeline, and give birth to the Amber timeline.

Do you understand, where/when do the Observers come from in season 1-3 if seasons 1-3 only exists to 2011?????? It only makes sense if it is a certain part of the amber time line that also already co-exists with the season 1-3 time lines...That is why I think the machine spat Peter out there, rather than the machine made a brand new time line...
This 2400-2609 has to exist somewhere all the time in order for the exact same Observers to exist continuously in every time line.

Future is synonymous with history. (it's only called a future because of it's date. to our characters it is the future, but if the Observers live there it is their current. ) but if you think about Observers being created and there existence in the series, then you have to realize that that DATE OF ORIGIN pre-exists even prior to season 1.


Again see my other answers for the explanation to your first paragraph.

Now for the second part.

Our current timeline has Many, countless, perhaps infinite possible futures that ALL EXIST. THEY DO EXIST PHYSICALLY! Sorry I am not yelling, I am highlighting.
From the perspective of ALL those possible futures our current timeline, and its past is their timeline's past. So the big bang September showed Peter was not just his big bang, it was our big bang too. This is why they are so concerned with any timeline the TV show is concerned with. Because any timeline that our characters are inhabiting, is the one that is their timeline. See There is only one timeline at a time per universe. The memories from Olivia and Walter, are not floating around in hyperspace. They are memories that came along with the re-appearance of Peter. There is no scientific explanation as September said when the beacon allowed him to re appear here. Love gave her her previous timeline's memories. I used the tape analogy earlier, so maybe like a video tape, the previously over-written memories, and Peter were bleeding through the over-write.

It's funny because you are trying to convince me, and thinking I don't get it, while I am trying to convince you thinking you don't get it.
lol :lol:
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:24 am

No there is more than one timeline per universe, because we can have iterations of the universes (meaning all blues are closer incranates to each other than the reds). You can create a branch off with out destroying the universe...

And I strongly disagree about the memory factor Rick. You can't get other memories unless they are available somewhere. -The Observers might be key to the ethereal plane (<----a phrase in the amber opening sequence)...that is why September's conscience was " a viewing room of memories". I can't get memories of another me or anyone else, unless another me has/someone else has existed and the memories are housed somewhere in order for them to be "transferred" to me. William Bell's conscience (memory) can't invade Olivia's body post death, unless his conscience still exist "somewhere" (as Walter "summoned" it from the beyond with "soul" MAGNETS) The whole thing might go hand with Immanuel Kant's', "Things in Itself" (or everything in and of itself). As explained by Walter Consciencse (ethereal) is out there and all it needs is a vessel (corporeal)

Esoteric cosmology almost always deals with at least some of the following themes: emanation, involution, spiritual evolution, epigenesis, planes of existence or higher worlds (and their emanation and the connections between them), hierarchies of spiritual beings, cosmic cycles (e.g., cosmic year, Yuga), yogic or spiritual disciplines and techniques of self-transformation, and references to mystical and altered states of consciousness.[1]


In esoteric cosmology, a plane, other than the physical plane is conceived as a subtle state of consciousness that transcends the known physical universe.
The concept may be found in religious, and esoteric teachings—e.g. Vedanta (Advaita Vedanta), Ayyavazhi, shamanism, Hermeticism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, Kashmir Shaivism, Sant Mat/Surat Shabd Yoga, Sufism, Druze, Kabbalah, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Rosicrucianism (Esoteric Christian), Eckankar, Ascended Master Teachings, etc.—which propound the idea of a whole series of subtle planes or worlds or dimensions which, from a center, interpenetrate themselves and the physical planet in which we live, the solar systems, and all the physical structures of the universe. This interpenetration of planes culminates in the universe itself as a physical structured, dynamic and evolutive expression emanated through a series of steadily denser stages, becoming progressively more material and embodied.
The emanation is conceived, according to esoteric teachings, to have been originated, at the dawn of the universe's manifestation, in The Supreme Being Who sent out—from the unmanifested Absolute beyond comprehension—the dynamic force of creative energy, as sound-vibration ("the Word"), into the abyss of space. On the other hand, it states that this dynamic force is being sent forth, through the ages, framing all things that constitute and inhabit the universe.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_(esotericism)


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Os:
WALTER: Maybe I can. Belly's notes are incomplete, but I think I was right about the trigger. I think there is an instrument that can draw Belly's consciousness out of its new vessel.
NINA: (watches as he walks to the ship's bell displayed on a cabinet top) Walter, what are you doing?
WALTER: And I think... Belly would have left it with someone he trusted.
NINA: (carries the bell back to her) No. You can't be serious.
WALTER: A person's consciousness... their soul is energy. And energy cannot be created or destroyed. No matter where Belly's consciousness is, the harmonic vibrations emanating from this bell will draw it forth from whatever vessel he chose before --


A universe could be a vessel too, as it is the physical space where we all reside. It's also suggesting that all versions are interrelated, because the conscience (memory, history, ect) can not "really" be created or destroyed, but rather continuous transitioning and forever preserved... (In Lost death wasn't the end, it was a transition between corporeal) "No matter where Belly's consciousness is..." <---It is somewhere

Stowaway:
BROYLES: So these soul magnets drew your consciousness into Olivia after you died?
WILLIAM BELL: Well, after my physical body died. As you can see, I am quite alive.


Perhaps this is why the Observers don't physically die, or change when universes are physically dismantled or destroyed (<---this has been my delema in terms of "how" they keep existing the way they do), because they are tapped into the ethereal plane (etherael plane = all possibilities (many world theory) of all realities that have ever existed, which are eternally preserved, and have become the true keepers of time. It must be that the amber time line exists (or the times in it) because it was the space they were created. Making parts of it a very old time line...and that is the only reason why in this time line a physical change on their part could be remedied, because like I was trying to say, they kept Peter in particular out of it and just sent them back and let those universe die. It's September who gives our Peter a way to change...(Their time creates the rest, one after another, which don't ever make it to recreate the Observers, but there time line keeps moving and in retrospect because this requires using same bits of original history in every time line after the first magor alteration (machine taken back), creates time lines that would look like "the golden ratio".

In other words they are super-Desmonds! :lol:
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