MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Spoiler discussion for 'Fringe'

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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:12 pm

I don't get into all the mechanics of Consciousness, I enjoy Fringe without having to dissect that part. So it makes no difference to me. I am a spiritual person. so I just chalk it up to that sort of thing. (I/E Heaven or Bardo, or Flash-Sideways world. Whatever is the unseen and un-shown place where consciousnesses, Old timeline memories, and souls live.) I am happy with that simple explanation. This still has no bearing on the Observer problem you seem to not get yet.

It is really very simple.

All possible futures exist, not just in theory but somewhere. The future, and present, and past, all exist in one dimension called time. We happen to view and relate to this dimension in a linear straight line progression, but to someone with access to the fourth dimension it is like an eternal present, and they can go anywhen they want to go because to them it is a now. This is how the Observers are viewing time. They can pick out the when they want to visit.

Also "The Future" and "Possible Futures" are two different things.

"The Future" is the one that ends up actually happening. It is the one in a billion possible futures that comes to pass on a given timeline, when viewed in relation to the preset and past. Like for instance in 2006 Obama's election was an event that will happen in "The Future" (2008)
Are we in agreement here?

"Possible Futures" are the many possible roads that could be taken in the present and "The Future" that hinge on probabilities due to events (constants and variables) in our present and our past. In this example, in 2006 McCain getting elected in 2008 is a possible future, as was Mitt Romney getting elected, as was Mike Huckabee, and Ron Paul, because at that point (2006) there were still probabilities of any of these happening because the Republican Convention had yet to have happened. But in 2008 when the Republican convention had happened, only two possible futures still existed. One in which McCain won, and one in which Obama won. All the other possible futures in this scenario stopped existing in that fourth dimension space after the convention because they became impossible.

Are we in agreement?

Back to how this applies in Fringe:

So somewhere in the fourth dimension, a possible future exists (it is a real place) wherein the Observers were created in (let's say 2400). Are you with me?

Ok because they actually exist in a place that to them is as real and visible as our current present (but to us only exists in the fourth dimension), they can exist here in this timeline which is the past of their timeline because they have time-travel to the past capabilities. Are you still with me?

This means that any timeline that has happened, no matter what (Blue, Red, or Amber, Purple, Green, Pink, Brown, you get the idea...), will end up being the far distant past of their timeline (as long as it does not hinder their eventual genesis in 2400). So they can navigate it because they have time-travel to the past capabilities. Still with me?

The loop timeline and corrupted future that was the blue, and red timeline of season 1-3 didn't change the above facts, because the blue universe was never allowed to be destroyed, since Peter always got Walter to send him and the machine parts back to the far past (paleolithic period etc...), creating a causality loop. ****Now that I think about it; Since we know that the divergence that created the Red universe had to have happened after the machine parts were distributed in the past (since both universes have the machine), then it is possible that the Observers are responsible for that divergence. Perhaps they wanted a back up plan in case Peter ever decided to choose the Alternate universe rather than the Prime universe. Either way the loop would have still been put in place to prevent the destruction of the the remaining universe after the choice.**** This assures their existence in the otherwise corrupted timelines. That is why they didn't wink out of existence.

On the subject of when, how, and why, Peter got erased, and the amber timeline was birthed, and how the machine got turned on in that new timeline.

Since we have not been given any real answers to these question, but only have certain truths about these situations, I have to speculate. This is what I came up with and it satisfies me.

While Peter was in the machine, at the exact split second AFTER he chose balance, and bridged the two universes, September who was waiting outside at the statue of Liberty, took a moment to go back in time to Reiden Lake on that fateful night and stopped his time-travel doppelganger from saving Peter,(this is probably how September dropped his device from "Making Angels") and only had Walter pulled from the Lake. This is what erased Peter from the timeline, and made everyone forget, and re-wrote the timeline's history, and why Peter was there for a moment, and then winked out of existence in the next moment at the end of season 3. This is also how the machine got turned on too.

Back to the Observer problem:

I've explained in detailed minutiae how the Observers can exist in any timeline's past, and also why they can exist in the Altverse too. So now I will again explain how the plan will rid the world of them.

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
We build a time machine, and we take Michael (who is a super intelligent post modern human that still has emotions and has abilities like his evil counterparts, but without the evil implants) to 2400, (wherein the origin of his evil counterparts sprang into existence), and explain to the 2400 scientists that if they go through with their plans they will, in effect, be ruining not only the future, but also their past, and that it could effect their existence. Then we would convince them to instead study this amazing child, and adjust their planned genetic experiments to replicate only his type, and to forego the implant tech. This will extinguish the evil observers, because it will destroy their genesis/origins. This in effect will make the possible future they existed from, not be possible anymore. Also effectively erasing the invasion of 2015, thus allowing Etta to grow up with her parents, and for this 2036 to be re-written.


The above is not my theory, it is my interpretation of what the spoiler source told me.

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The time machine part, and the part where we take Michael to the future, and the part where the future scientist come to a realization that they need to stop what they're doing is all from the spoiler I received.


Anyway I hope this helps you understand why the plan can work, and how the Observer exist in seemingly all timelines and universes. I hope this demystifies it for you.

Also I can just agree to disagree on the other stuff about the past futures and past timelines. My explanation works for me regarding those things, and your's seems to work for you. :thumbsup:
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby WJames on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:58 am

Thanks for the spoilers Rick. I've only read the first one and the non tagged discussion, and...my head hurts! :PP
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:15 am

WJames wrote:Thanks for the spoilers Rick. I've only read the first one and the non tagged discussion, and...my head hurts! :PP


It's some wibbly wobbly timey wimey type stuff isn't it. O.o :S :scared: :thumbsup:
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:32 am

rtterry3225 wrote:I don't get into all the mechanics of Consciousness, I enjoy Fringe without having to dissect that part. So it makes no difference to me. I am a spiritual person. so I just chalk it up to that sort of thing. (I/E Heaven or Bardo, or Flash-Sideways world. Whatever is the unseen and un-shown place where consciousnesses, Old timeline memories, and souls live.) I am happy with that simple explanation. This still has no bearing on the Observer problem you seem to not get yet.

It is really very simple.

All possible futures exist, not just in theory but somewhere. The future, and present, and past, all exist in one dimension called time. We happen to view and relate to this dimension in a linear straight line progression, but to someone with access to the fourth dimension it is like an eternal present, and they can go anywhen they want to go because to them it is a now. This is how the Observers are viewing time. They can pick out the when they want to visit.

Also "The Future" and "Possible Futures" are two different things.

"The Future" is the one that ends up actually happening. It is the one in a billion possible futures that comes to pass on a given timeline, when viewed in relation to the preset and past. Like for instance in 2006 Obama's election was an event that will happen in "The Future" (2008)
Are we in agreement here?

"Possible Futures" are the many possible roads that could be taken in the present and "The Future" that hinge on probabilities due to events (constants and variables) in our present and our past. In this example, in 2006 McCain getting elected in 2008 is a possible future, as was Mitt Romney getting elected, as was Mike Huckabee, and Ron Paul, because at that point (2006) there were still probabilities of any of these happening because the Republican Convention had yet to have happened. But in 2008 when the Republican convention had happened, only two possible futures still existed. One in which McCain won, and one in which Obama won. All the other possible futures in this scenario stopped existing in that fourth dimension space after the convention because they became impossible.

Are we in agreement?

Back to how this applies in Fringe:

So somewhere in the fourth dimension, a possible future exists (it is a real place) wherein the Observers were created in (let's say 2400). Are you with me?

Ok because they actually exist in a place that to them is as real and visible as our current present (but to us only exists in the fourth dimension), they can exist here in this timeline which is the past of their timeline because they have time-travel to the past capabilities. Are you still with me?

This means that any timeline that has happened, no matter what (Blue, Red, or Amber, Purple, Green, Pink, Brown, you get the idea...), will end up being the far distant past of their timeline (as long as it does not hinder their eventual genesis in 2400). So they can navigate it because they have time-travel to the past capabilities. Still with me?

The loop timeline and corrupted future that was the blue, and red timeline of season 1-3 didn't change the above facts, because the blue universe was never allowed to be destroyed, since Peter always got Walter to send him and the machine parts back to the far past (paleolithic period etc...), creating a causality loop. ****Now that I think about it; Since we know that the divergence that created the Red universe had to have happened after the machine parts were distributed in the past (since both universes have the machine), then it is possible that the Observers are responsible for that divergence. Perhaps they wanted a back up plan in case Peter ever decided to choose the Alternate universe rather than the Prime universe. Either way the loop would have still been put in place to prevent the destruction of the the remaining universe after the choice.**** This assures their existence in the otherwise corrupted timelines. That is why they didn't wink out of existence.

On the subject of when, how, and why, Peter got erased, and the amber timeline was birthed, and how the machine got turned on in that new timeline.

Since we have not been given any real answers to these question, but only have certain truths about these situations, I have to speculate. This is what I came up with and it satisfies me.

While Peter was in the machine, at the exact split second AFTER he chose balance, and bridged the two universes, September who was waiting outside at the statue of Liberty, took a moment to go back in time to Reiden Lake on that fateful night and stopped his time-travel doppelganger from saving Peter,(this is probably how September dropped his device from "Making Angels") and only had Walter pulled from the Lake. This is what erased Peter from the timeline, and made everyone forget, and re-wrote the timeline's history, and why Peter was there for a moment, and then winked out of existence in the next moment at the end of season 3. This is also how the machine got turned on too.

Back to the Observer problem:

I've explained in detailed minutiae how the Observers can exist in any timeline's past, and also why they can exist in the Altverse too. So now I will again explain how the plan will rid the world of them.

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
We build a time machine, and we take Michael (who is a super intelligent post modern human that still has emotions and has abilities like his evil counterparts, but without the evil implants) to 2400, (wherein the origin of his evil counterparts sprang into existence), and explain to the 2400 scientists that if they go through with their plans they will, in effect, be ruining not only the future, but also their past, and that it could effect their existence. Then we would convince them to instead study this amazing child, and adjust their planned genetic experiments to replicate only his type, and to forego the implant tech. This will extinguish the evil observers, because it will destroy their genesis/origins. This in effect will make the possible future they existed from, not be possible anymore. Also effectively erasing the invasion of 2015, thus allowing Etta to grow up with her parents, and for this 2036 to be re-written.


The above is not my theory, it is my interpretation of what the spoiler source told me.

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The time machine part, and the part where we take Michael to the future, and the part where the future scientist come to a realization that they need to stop what they're doing is all from the spoiler I received.


Anyway I hope this helps you understand why the plan can work, and how the Observer exist in seemingly all timelines and universes. I hope this demystifies it for you.

Also I can just agree to disagree on the other stuff about the past futures and past timelines. My explanation works for me regarding those things, and your's seems to work for you. :thumbsup:



No. Because we (the viewers) have already witnessed/aware of "4" 1985s from 4 universes that have all already come to pass, and two of the 1985s exit before two of the others.

Depending on when one is in time, or where one originates in time, is any date a past, present, or future. Those 1985's are past now in comparison to where the our character's our.

There is not just one timeline or universe there are several and we have mainly seen bigger parts of 4 of them, with knowledge that several previous ones didn't survive (they only exist so far to certain dates, while new ones are made by time traveling with the machines)

I am NOT arguing about the idea of how we don't know what future will ever come to pass, because they are all out there, but the Observers origins in relations to all the histories that have already come to pass (all of the time lines/universes), because every second time is passing and it is no longer the future to those that pass through it.

EX: to some Observers 2609 is a present place of existence, but to our characters in 2036 it's a future that is co-existing with 2036 and possibly all the dates in btween, but what is not clear is if 2609 is really/was the future of the amber time line? or is it another future from another time line that has become "parallel"? But what I believe is that it has be apart of THE OBSERVERS time line of origin and they found a way to become parallel to what we precieve as the amber time line and created a future it never had, that we are now trying to change.

It's about which future will come to pass when for you, but many futures have already come to pass, and not just in one universe, time line, as all futures become pass as we evolve through them.

If you go to the convention in your time line of origin in 2008 "right now" it's you're present, and then a day passes. it's your past, but then lets say you time travel back (in your timeline) to the day before, the one you haven't been to yet, is your future and your past simultaneously...the one you have already been to is your past and there is NO garentee the two on going time lines and post conventions experiences will result in the same outcomes, because you created an alteration/branch off (new timeline from that point on) by having two versions of yourself with possibly different sets of knowledge in one space...BUT one of those two convention experiences existed before the other always to YOU. (you don't know if your counter part is going to do the same thing as you!)-A (your time line of origin) 2008 -B new time line you made (especially if you did fold back to a time your past self already existed, but the whammy is during the second convention your past self is younger than you and your older than he)

The lets say a third version of yourself time travels to when you time traveled back to the convention too. He says his current was 2012. (now there are three versions of you). Now the one from 2012 isn't necessarily from your time lines' 2012, because we do not know if your 2012's exist yet....so he is from yet another time line. He is older than you and your other counterpart, so his time line might exist before either of yours, as his 2008 happened to him 2 years ago and no 2012 has happened for you at all! Right here 3 time lines have unknown futures from 3 dates. Two 2008's that exist a day a part and a 2012. The 2012's time lines Rick's future can be another 2012 should he live and remain in this time line.

The Observers have past, present, and futures too! Every time a universe dies (seemingly for many time lines @ 2026) all the people in them die, but are "reborn" with new counterparts/incarnates in the next iteration...This doesn't seem to happen to the Observers. And it must be because they have their own universe or another plane of existence to be in.

The reason the metaphysics of an ethereal plane might be important, Rick, is because it might be another way the Observers can exist out side of "time" (like another dimension) to avoid the Big Bangs reshaping themselves and creating other brand new versions of themselves. Other wise they wouldn't continue to exist the way they do.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:32 am

rtterry3225 wrote:I don't get into all the mechanics of Consciousness, I enjoy Fringe without having to dissect that part. So it makes no difference to me. I am a spiritual person. so I just chalk it up to that sort of thing. (I/E Heaven or Bardo, or Flash-Sideways world. Whatever is the unseen and un-shown place where consciousnesses, Old timeline memories, and souls live.) I am happy with that simple explanation. This still has no bearing on the Observer problem you seem to not get yet.

It is really very simple.

All possible futures exist, not just in theory but somewhere. The future, and present, and past, all exist in one dimension called time. We happen to view and relate to this dimension in a linear straight line progression, but to someone with access to the fourth dimension it is like an eternal present, and they can go anywhen they want to go because to them it is a now. This is how the Observers are viewing time. They can pick out the when they want to visit.

Also "The Future" and "Possible Futures" are two different things.

"The Future" is the one that ends up actually happening. It is the one in a billion possible futures that comes to pass on a given timeline, when viewed in relation to the preset and past. Like for instance in 2006 Obama's election was an event that will happen in "The Future" (2008)
Are we in agreement here?

"Possible Futures" are the many possible roads that could be taken in the present and "The Future" that hinge on probabilities due to events (constants and variables) in our present and our past. In this example, in 2006 McCain getting elected in 2008 is a possible future, as was Mitt Romney getting elected, as was Mike Huckabee, and Ron Paul, because at that point (2006) there were still probabilities of any of these happening because the Republican Convention had yet to have happened. But in 2008 when the Republican convention had happened, only two possible futures still existed. One in which McCain won, and one in which Obama won. All the other possible futures in this scenario stopped existing in that fourth dimension space after the convention because they became impossible.

Are we in agreement?

Back to how this applies in Fringe:

So somewhere in the fourth dimension, a possible future exists (it is a real place) wherein the Observers were created in (let's say 2400). Are you with me?

Ok because they actually exist in a place that to them is as real and visible as our current present (but to us only exists in the fourth dimension), they can exist here in this timeline which is the past of their timeline because they have time-travel to the past capabilities. Are you still with me?

This means that any timeline that has happened, no matter what (Blue, Red, or Amber, Purple, Green, Pink, Brown, you get the idea...), will end up being the far distant past of their timeline (as long as it does not hinder their eventual genesis in 2400). So they can navigate it because they have time-travel to the past capabilities. Still with me?

The loop timeline and corrupted future that was the blue, and red timeline of season 1-3 didn't change the above facts, because the blue universe was never allowed to be destroyed, since Peter always got Walter to send him and the machine parts back to the far past (paleolithic period etc...), creating a causality loop. ****Now that I think about it; Since we know that the divergence that created the Red universe had to have happened after the machine parts were distributed in the past (since both universes have the machine), then it is possible that the Observers are responsible for that divergence. Perhaps they wanted a back up plan in case Peter ever decided to choose the Alternate universe rather than the Prime universe. Either way the loop would have still been put in place to prevent the destruction of the the remaining universe after the choice.**** This assures their existence in the otherwise corrupted timelines. That is why they didn't wink out of existence.

On the subject of when, how, and why, Peter got erased, and the amber timeline was birthed, and how the machine got turned on in that new timeline.

Since we have not been given any real answers to these question, but only have certain truths about these situations, I have to speculate. This is what I came up with and it satisfies me.

While Peter was in the machine, at the exact split second AFTER he chose balance, and bridged the two universes, September who was waiting outside at the statue of Liberty, took a moment to go back in time to Reiden Lake on that fateful night and stopped his time-travel doppelganger from saving Peter,(this is probably how September dropped his device from "Making Angels") and only had Walter pulled from the Lake. This is what erased Peter from the timeline, and made everyone forget, and re-wrote the timeline's history, and why Peter was there for a moment, and then winked out of existence in the next moment at the end of season 3. This is also how the machine got turned on too.

Back to the Observer problem:

I've explained in detailed minutiae how the Observers can exist in any timeline's past, and also why they can exist in the Altverse too. So now I will again explain how the plan will rid the world of them.

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
We build a time machine, and we take Michael (who is a super intelligent post modern human that still has emotions and has abilities like his evil counterparts, but without the evil implants) to 2400, (wherein the origin of his evil counterparts sprang into existence), and explain to the 2400 scientists that if they go through with their plans they will, in effect, be ruining not only the future, but also their past, and that it could effect their existence. Then we would convince them to instead study this amazing child, and adjust their planned genetic experiments to replicate only his type, and to forego the implant tech. This will extinguish the evil observers, because it will destroy their genesis/origins. This in effect will make the possible future they existed from, not be possible anymore. Also effectively erasing the invasion of 2015, thus allowing Etta to grow up with her parents, and for this 2036 to be re-written.


The above is not my theory, it is my interpretation of what the spoiler source told me.

Spoiler (Click to reveal/hide)
The time machine part, and the part where we take Michael to the future, and the part where the future scientist come to a realization that they need to stop what they're doing is all from the spoiler I received.


Anyway I hope this helps you understand why the plan can work, and how the Observer exist in seemingly all timelines and universes. I hope this demystifies it for you.

Also I can just agree to disagree on the other stuff about the past futures and past timelines. My explanation works for me regarding those things, and your's seems to work for you. :thumbsup:



No. Because we (the viewers) have already witnessed/aware of "4" 1985s from 4 universes that have all already come to pass, and two of the 1985s exit before two of the others.

Depending on when one is in time, or where one originates in time, is any date a past, present, or future. Those 1985's are past now in comparison to where the our character's our.

There is not just one timeline or universe there are several and we have mainly seen bigger parts of 4 of them, with knowledge that several previous ones didn't survive (they only exist so far to certain dates, while new ones are made by time traveling with the machines)

I am NOT arguing about the idea of how we don't know what future will ever come to pass, because they are all out there, but the Observers origins in relations to all the histories that have already come to pass (all of the time lines/universes), because every second time is passing and it is no longer the future to those that pass through it.

EX: to some Observers 2609 is a present place of existence, but to our characters in 2036 it's a future that is co-existing with 2036 and possibly all the dates in btween, but what is not clear is if 2609 is really/was the future of the amber time line currently? or is it another future (date) from another time line that has become "parallel"to 2036 (originally 2015)? But what I believe is that it has be apart of THE OBSERVERS time line of origin and they found a way to become parallel to what we precieve as the amber time line and created a future it never had, that we are now trying to change. We might be experiencing two timelines that seem like they are one when they are not and 2609 is not the future, it's the past/current: the Observers

It's about which future will come to pass when for you, but many futures have already come to pass, and not just in one universe, time line, as all futures become pass as we evolve through them.

If you go to the convention in your time line of origin in 2008 "right now" it's you're present, and then a day passes. it's your past, but then lets say you time travel back (in your timeline) to the day before. The one you haven't been to yet, is your future and your past simultaneously...The one you have already been to is your past, and there is NO garentee the two on going time lines and post conventions experiences will result in the same outcomes, because you created an alteration/branch off (new timeline from that point on) by having two versions of yourself with possibly different sets of knowledge in one space...BUT one of those two convention experiences existed before the other always to YOU. (you don't know if your counter part is going to do the same thing as you!)-A (your time line of origin) 2008 -B new time line you made (especially if you did fold back to a time your past self already existed, but the whammy is during the second convention your past self is younger than you and your older than he)

The lets say a third version of yourself time travels to when you time traveled back to the convention too. He says his current was 2012. (now there are three versions of you). Now the one from 2012 isn't necessarily from your time lines' 2012, because we do not know if your 2012's exist yet....so he is from yet another time line. He is older than you and your other counterpart, so his time line might exist before either of yours, as his 2008 happened to him 2 years ago and no 2012 has happened for you at all! Right here 3 time lines have unknown futures from 3 dates. Two 2008's that exist a day a part and a 2012. The 2012's time lines Rick's future can be another 2012 should he live and remain in this time line. But one of these Ricks has existed in space time before the others in order for him to exist the way he does (age, event order) with the other ones...

The Observers have past, present, and futures too! Every time a universe dies (seemingly for many time lines @ 2026) all the people in them die, but are "reborn" with new counterparts/incarnates in the next iteration...This doesn't seem to happen to the Observers. And it must be because they have their own universe or another plane of existence to be in.

There isn't blue September-A, Red September-A, blue September-B, Red September-B, ect There is just one continuously evolving September...

The reason the metaphysics of an ethereal plane might be important, Rick, is because it might be another way the Observers can exist out side of "time" (like another dimension) to avoid the Big Bangs reshaping themselves and creating other brand new versions of themselves. Other wise they wouldn't continue to exist the way they do, because all futures where they should have been re-created/reborn keep being eliminated, but yet "here they are" with no incarnates. They found a way to make themselves eternal.

But I don't think I have made a difference in what I was getting at. It's cool. I'm done. :)
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:19 am

I invoke Occams Razor on this.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/occam's+razor

Occam's razor
noun
the maxim that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity.
Origin:
1900–05; after William of Occam


Occam's razor
when two competing hypotheses explain the data equally well, choose the simpler. Named for Eng. philosopher William of Ockham (c.1285-c.1349).

Science Dictionary
Occam's razor or Ockham's razor (ŏk'əmz) Pronunciation Key
A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known. Occam's razor is named after the deviser of the rule, English philosopher and theologian William of Ockham (1285?-1349?).


Sorry I am having trouble getting through all the extra timeline stuff and add to that the past selves and such (it is not that I can't comprehend it, it is that i think you are over thinking it) I prefer to see it in the simplest of ways.
I'm looking at it like a writer, not a scientist. I'm just trying to fill plot holes, with the simplest solution possible.

September even said it; "She is your Olivia, this is your home." He didn't say you are right, and you need to go to another plane of existence to get your Olivia.

Also, when Peter adjusted Windmark's timeline, and Mueller's Timeline, it didn't send him to a new plane of existence, it just simply re-wrote the future history he already saw.

There are but 2 of every character, (except Peter his double is dead) because there are two universes. You are confusing Timelines with universes. There is no Blue Walter vs Amber Walter. There is Prime universe Walter that once had Blue memories and experiences, and now he instead has Amber memories and experiences. It is the same sack of meat and bones (body) There are not iterations of character on different planes of existence in dead timelines, or throwaway timelines. And even if there were then it doesn't effect the timeline that we are focused on. There was an Olivia that had Blue experience, then she had Amber experiences, then her Memories and experiences reverted back to Blue again Same woman, same body, same mind, different histories. If they happen to change the timeline again then there will be, I don't know, Olivia and Peter with Green experiences or something.

Another clue that the blue timeline has ceased to exist is that September Told the New Month Observer in 4x01 that the timeline has been re-written. Key word is re-written, that doesn't mean this in a new plane of existence it is the same plane of existence with a re-written history.

But I suspect you still disagree no matter what. It is just that you are still wondering how the plan will work, trying to chase down this timeline and that version, and what if the Observers come from a time before this time and so on. All that is nonsense to me. Because a possible future is exactly what the word means. A possible future. I am not going to get into it again, but it is simple if a time-traveler from a possible future is screwing with you, then the way to stop them is to make sure their possible future becomes impossible, then they will have ceased to exist and never screw with you.

So i guess I digress
So I will agree that we disagree on this stuff. We take away different things from Fringe, but we both love it, that's for sure.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:15 pm

I don't believe in O. R. because nothing would progress if we would believe everything is simple, or that the simplest is always the answer. You're sick. Your gonna to die. It's simple. Or You're sick. You're different. We are going to kill you or lock you away. Simple. Or You're sick you look green. To get your color back we will give carrots. It Didn't rain today. The rain God is mad at us. Simple.

In the world of science and medicine IMO nothing is simple, the more we answer, the more questions there are, and more complicated we see anything is, because we have to take the time to rip things apart and resemble them in order to understand them. (Obviously there is good to bad to innovation which is why Alchemy and Fringe science died and we created the scientific method, but in any case it's always about motivation and what we are willing to do in order to understand and if it is always worth it...)

Because of what was said In "Os" and "Stowaway" I know that what was said is vital in understanding quantum mechanics of these realities, as it implies that the ethereal is the driving force in them, hence the Observers abilities, and hence nothing can truly be "destroyed". And that are versions are interrelated, because they are all part of the same "soul" (energy)

I happened to watch "Dead is Dead" last night, and although I had thought it before, I more clearly can see a similarities between the smoke monster and The Observers. The smoke monster astral projects memories in various states and forms, and not just from 'their' time line (Ex: Taller Ghost Walt. He can't appear "older" before he is, unless another version of him has already has been older). When MIB disappears in the form of John, he doesn't show up as an image of Alex first, but instead projects the memories of her (from Ben's perspective) recant existence on the walls around Ben...It is the same idea as when Peter enters September's mind and an "innate" September in an Ethereal plane shows an innate Peter the universe while standing in a "cosmic viewing room". He then also projects the memories from the past time line, including Henry, to Peter. -It implies that what was said in Os and Stowaway are truth, because September still can access those memories, hence the reality still exists somewhere, despite not being able to "go there".

In the end this could be important in being able to provide an explanation as to "how" the characters (as they are) my be able to preserved in what ever kind of a reset could occur. Another reason this matters because it asks the viewers philosophical questions about our identities (what is identity? What is Reality?) and purpose through out various spaces in various times with realizations that there is something bigger than us, because it's never just about any one of us (all the time).

In my mind I know the Observers (as they are) have existed in many of these timelines, because they existed BEFORE them, as they originate some-when else. But in order to preserve themselves in it's ever-changing ways, they had to find a way to make themselves "constant" -Especially to be able to conquer large time periods simultaneously from various points in it. To me it's important to understand how they are here now , and if time periods we are in really are "now" and not also "then".

But I agree that in terms of the story it doesn't matter if the viewer understands or asks these things, to the degree I do, because like Lost, it is meant to be a window into and an introspection of something complicated in terms of seeing a certain group of people's journey and watch them come to an end of a cycle, or series of cycles. What matters most is if these people can get to a better place and if we believe they were meant to. I know we both hope in some way that we want a silver lining, because we both love these characters and want them to exist no matter "when" or "where" they do. :)
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby Pascal219 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:49 pm

No words... just holy ****! And thanks...
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:36 pm

DarthLocke wrote:I don't believe in O. R. because nothing would progress if we would believe everything is simple, or that the simplest is always the answer. You're sick. Your gonna to die. It's simple. Or You're sick. You're different. We are going to kill you or lock you away. Simple. Or You're sick you look green. To get your color back we will give carrots. It Didn't rain today. The rain God is mad at us. Simple.

In the world of science and medicine IMO nothing is simple, the more we answer, the more questions there are, and more complicated we see anything is, because we have to take the time to rip things apart and resemble them in order to understand them. (Obviously there is good to bad to innovation which is why Alchemy and Fringe science died and we created the scientific method, but in any case it's always about motivation and what we are willing to do in order to understand and if it is always worth it...)

Because of what was said In "Os" and "Stowaway" I know that what was said is vital in understanding quantum mechanics of these realities, as it implies that the ethereal is the driving force in them, hence the Observers abilities, and hence nothing can truly be "destroyed". And that are versions are interrelated, because they are all part of the same "soul" (energy)

I happened to watch "Dead is Dead" last night, and although I had thought it before, I more clearly can see a similarities between the smoke monster and The Observers. The smoke monster astral projects memories in various states and forms, and not just from 'their' time line (Ex: Taller Ghost Walt. He can't appear "older" before he is, unless another version of him has already has been older). When MIB disappears in the form of John, he doesn't show up as an image of Alex first, but instead projects the memories of her (from Ben's perspective) recant existence on the walls around Ben...It is the same idea as when Peter enters September's mind and an "innate" September in an Ethereal plane shows an innate Peter the universe while standing in a "cosmic viewing room". He then also projects the memories from the past time line, including Henry, to Peter. -It implies that what was said in Os and Stowaway are truth, because September still can access those memories, hence the reality still exists somewhere, despite not being able to "go there".

In the end this could be important in being able to provide an explanation as to "how" the characters (as they are) my be able to preserved in what ever kind of a reset could occur. Another reason this matters because it asks the viewers philosophical questions about our identities (what is identity? What is Reality?) and purpose through out various spaces in various times with realizations that there is something bigger than us, because it's never just about any one of us (all the time).

In my mind I know the Observers (as they are) have existed in many of these timelines, because they existed BEFORE them, as they originate some-when else. But in order to preserve themselves in it's ever-changing ways, they had to find a way to make themselves "constant" -Especially to be able to conquer large time periods simultaneously from various points in it. To me it's important to understand how they are here now , and if time periods we are in really are "now" and not also "then".

But I agree that in terms of the story it doesn't matter if the viewer understands or asks these things, to the degree I do, because like Lost, it is meant to be a window into and an introspection of something complicated in terms of seeing a certain group of people's journey and watch them come to an end of a cycle, or series of cycles. What matters most is if these people can get to a better place and if we believe they were meant to. I know we both hope in some way that we want a silver lining, because we both love these characters and want them to exist no matter "when" or "where" they do. :)




I guess what is driving me a little crazy, and making me want to keep posting this, is the fact that for all your philosophizing, and thinking about past timelines being relevant, and past futures that preceded current timelines, and iterations of characters and their past timeline memories, and all the metaphysics of it all, you still haven't come to a satisfying conclusion to as to where the Observers come from or originate from, and how they exist in this timeline. O.o (even though September has said where or better yet when they come from in the show.) And you keep posing the question in every post you make, except this last one. :S

I then, give a very succinct and plausible answer, to that very question, down to the smallest detail and minutiae, that fits into the narrative of the show, and it makes literal sense inasmuch as anything Fringe can make any sense, and ties it all into a nice little package, and you can't accept it as being possible in the reality of the show, or even plausible when it totally is, :hmm: (because you want to hold onto the past timelines and past iterations of looping characters that really unnecessarily overly complicate the answer you are looking for :S ), then you go on to over analyze it until you make it not make any sense to you. O.o

I just feel like Fringe is actually making sense to me, unlike LOST :thumbup: . I want that for you too, and perhaps it is, but you make it seem like its still a big mystery to you. I guess that is the ever questioning scientist in you. ;)

I guess you and I just think differently about it. I like concrete answers, and if the show doesn't provide them like with the disappearing Peter, and the machine turning itself on, then I rationalize them into a satisfying answer to me. That is the Sci-fi mystery loving writer in me I guess. :P

Girl you frustrate me, but only because I like you. :lol: :D If I didn't like you, I'd leave it alone, and let what I wrote speak for itself. Women are from Venus, and Men are from Mars I guess. :P

I guess we will see how all this turns out in the next couple of weeks so at least we don't have too long to wait. :thumbsup:
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:28 pm

Pascal219 wrote:No words... just holy ****! And thanks...



Yeah bro! You're welcome. :D
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:54 am

I will try one last time :P

It's because all possible futures are also possible pasts (<---pasts of other time lines. That 2026 in "The Day We Died" has already existed, but [our] Peter makes a different choice "this time" to stop it from coming to pass again and again).

Observers aren't from the future, they are from 'a future' of an already existing time line.

If they originate in (using your example) 2400, then "that" 2400 has be preserved, because in all of the more recant iterations BEFORE what we come to see as the amber time lines, those previous time lines never reach 2400 AD...they die before then, and the time lines start over because the machine were taken back by Peters.

So In order for them to be "here" now, and never be reborn like our characters, they had to have a way to preserve themselves in space-time. -Which is why part of this time line (what the characters precieve as future: 2400-2609, is past and current TO THE OBSERVERS.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:51 am

DarthLocke wrote:I will try one last time :P

It's because all possible futures are also possible pasts (<---pasts of other time lines. That 2026 in "The Day We Died" has already existed, but [our] Peter makes a different choice "this time" to stop it from coming to pass again and again).

Observers aren't from the future, they are from 'a future' of an already existing time line.

If they originate in (using your example) 2400, then "that" 2400 has be preserved, because in all of the more recant iterations BEFORE what we come to see as the amber time lines, those previous time lines never reach 2400 AD...they die before then, and the time lines start over because the machine were taken back by Peters.

So In order for them to be "here" now, and never be reborn like our characters, they had to have a way to preserve themselves in space-time. -Which is why part of this time line (what the characters precieve as future: 2400-2609, is past and current TO THE OBSERVERS.


Could you imagine the conversation we'd have if you and I weren't hundreds of miles apart, and if we could actually sit down together and watch Fringe? I think for a fly on the wall it would be hilarious! :rofl:

I am just curious why you think:

If they originate in (using your example) 2400, then "that" 2400 has be preserved, because in all of the more recant iterations BEFORE what we come to see as the amber time lines, those previous time lines never reach 2400 AD...they die before then, and the time lines start over because the machine were taken back by Peters.


Because if they die before Peter takes back the machine, then wouldn't Peter have died too, and the Machine never get sent back? Or if they died AFTER Peter went into the wormhole then it wouldn't matter to the Observers because the resulting loop from Peter stepping into that wormhole would preserve the timeline enough for them to still exist in a possible future for that timeline. You see, it is not the timeline that dies it is the universe. The timeline is stuck in a loop, preserving it. They don't actually HAVE TO REACH 2400 for the Observers to exist, they just have to have the possibility of eventually one day making it to 2400 for the Observers to exist. Thanks to the loop they still always had that possibility. The whole balance/bridge thing was the loophole (no pun intended) the Observers needed to END the LOOP and get on with their invasion. That is why September was told to let Peter drown and make sure he was erased. The loop itself was preserving their existence until they could arrange for their invasion. The Invasion happening so quickly (2015) was so that they could insure their eventually genesis especially now that the timeline isn't stuck in a giant loop anymore, and the dreaded Peter continues to exist despite every effort to get rid of him..
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby DarthLocke on Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:17 pm

rtterry3225 wrote:
DarthLocke wrote:I will try one last time :P

It's because all possible futures are also possible pasts (<---pasts of other time lines. That 2026 in "The Day We Died" has already existed, but [our] Peter makes a different choice "this time" to stop it from coming to pass again and again).

Observers aren't from the future, they are from 'a future' of an already existing time line.

If they originate in (using your example) 2400, then "that" 2400 has be preserved, because in all of the more recant iterations BEFORE what we come to see as the amber time lines, those previous time lines never reach 2400 AD...they die before then, and the time lines start over because the machine were taken back by Peters.

So In order for them to be "here" now, and never be reborn like our characters, they had to have a way to preserve themselves in space-time. -Which is why part of this time line (what the characters precieve as future: 2400-2609, is past and current TO THE OBSERVERS.


Could you imagine the conversation we'd have if you and I weren't hundreds of miles apart, and if we could actually sit down together and watch Fringe? I think for a fly on the wall it would be hilarious! :rofl:

I am just curious why you think:

If they originate in (using your example) 2400, then "that" 2400 has be preserved, because in all of the more recant iterations BEFORE what we come to see as the amber time lines, those previous time lines never reach 2400 AD...they die before then, and the time lines start over because the machine were taken back by Peters.


Because if they die before Peter takes back the machine, then wouldn't Peter have died too, and the Machine never get sent back? Or if they died AFTER Peter went into the wormhole then it wouldn't matter to the Observers because the resulting loop from Peter stepping into that wormhole would preserve the timeline enough for them to still exist in a possible future for that timeline. You see, it is not the timeline that dies it is the universe. The timeline is stuck in a loop, preserving it. They don't actually HAVE TO REACH 2400 for the Observers to exist, they just have to have the possibility of eventually one day making it to 2400 for the Observers to exist. Thanks to the loop they still always had that possibility. The whole balance/bridge thing was the loophole (no pun intended) the Observers needed to END the LOOP and get on with their invasion. That is why September was told to let Peter drown and make sure he was erased. The loop itself was preserving their existence until they could arrange for their invasion. The Invasion happening so quickly (2015) was so that they could insure their eventually genesis especially now that the timeline isn't stuck in a giant loop anymore, and the dreaded Peter continues to exist despite every effort to get rid of him..


We do not know "why" Peter "rematerializes.....this is another mystery, an anomaly, because every other time, when he doesn't choose Balance they all die. This is why I thought the machine sent him "here" and "here" had to already exist. (and this is also why I thought the amber time line was Bardo)

We never see the Observers Die or Fade...they exist still after Peter disappears outside the bridge room...

Now your last part makes perfect sense, but it relies on having a space (any date from a pre-existing time line) to invade from (like 2609). We have NO proof that the Observers dematerialize and rematerialize (all though it makes sense since they physically time travel)...However if they do, then this goes with what I was taking about in regards to them using/being interconnected to an ethereal plane (after physical death/before physical rebirth - bridge -collective conscience = nothing can be created/nothing can be destroyed)...because that is where Peter would 'be' when he dies/disappears (dematerializes) and where William Bell in season 3 came back from...

Because if the amber time line is completely new, then a *new* 2400-era would have been made too since 2609 is also already in existence (<---this is where Windmark comes from and where the shipments come from) and if the Observers we know return to it from the beyond (ethereal plane), then there would be 2 different sets of Observers. Otherwise the loops when they were broken allowed us to go back to the Observers original time line (somehow "preserved" along with them--which has been my point) and the machine allows our protagonists to rewrite it...) -Others wise we are going to be talking about a third faction of Observers with this plan...which perhaps given August and Michael's existences, perhaps they are not anomalies after all...but we're caught in a bigger a loop...)

You can't exist some where that doesn't exist Rick. They don't come from a possible future, as much as a future that has already come to pass in some other time line (a pre-existing one/ just like the machine parts)...just like Peter. Either they went to ethereal mode when the big bang happened and randomly returned "somewhere" in this new time line (that happens to mirror or "repeat" their original time line's in order for an origin date to matter) or there would have to be "new" Observers created at the 2400 mark, or there time line is in another universe that never has been destroyed, or severely altered...

IMO the simplest way is if at the end of their time line, they came back and invaded the middle (possibly still unfolding) our *new time line, suggesting that their time line has been there and preserved (it's own universe) the whole time...and when the other blue and red universes continued to die and get stuck in loops, theirs didn't

IMO we do not know why they invaded, or why they chose the date they did...but It probably has to do with learning about Peter's existence and not a long time thought out planned invasion!

Universes "evolve" too...Space moves through time and time doesn't exist, "timing" does. (we just measure our evolution in space, and space's evolution in space, with what we call time. Time = the distance something takes to move or change)
Ok I'm done.
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby rtterry3225 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:10 am

DarthLocke wrote:Ok I'm done.

I think I agree with you on this one I'm done too. :PP

All I know for sure is that after next Friday, we'll probably be back here duking it out again. :fight:

I am exhausted. You wore me out LB. :yawn:
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Re: MAJOR SPOILERS for 5x11

Postby WJames on Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:15 pm

DarthLocke wrote:IMO the simplest way is if at the end of their time line, they came back and invaded the middle (possibly still unfolding) our *new time line, suggesting that their time line has been there and preserved (it's own universe) the whole time...and when the other blue and red universes continued to die and get stuck in loops, theirs didn't


This is what I always thought, because the act of invading would mean that they are changing the variables of the timeline and could be causing unknown changes in their present (2609). So I thought that their timeline is as you say locked, constant, preserved no matter what shenanigans they pull in our present... BUT, the show could explain it that The Observers calculated all the variables, perhaps seen them after observing and then came to conclusion that they have to invade in order to be created and get to their 2609. We'll see.
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