An interesting debate on Episode three

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An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby Bec666 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:07 pm

On the main spoiler board there is an interesting debate going on under the thread about this Episode.

Some feel Dean was totally right for letting the kid go at the end.

Others feel he should have killed him too.

Here are my thoughts. My biggest problem with the scene was that Dean lied to Sam. He said he would trust him and he obviously didn't. No on to Amy and her son. Dean used the old fall back 'you will kill again. The other shoe always drops'. Well if that is the case how can you let the kid live? He just lost his sole food provider and watched you murder his mom. Do you really think he's not going to kill now to survive? And I'm not buying the argument that Dean couldn't kill him because he hadn't killed yet. Sure didn't bother him in the 'Fresh Blood' Episode. He beheaded Lucy without hesitation. She hadn't fed, she hadn't killed but he simply killed her because she was a vampire.

Your thoughts?
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby Elize34 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:42 pm

That was my main problem with this episode....
I felt like Dean went backwards... as in his character-development went backwards. Remember how in season 5 he finally was able to trust Sam and let him try out the 'I will say yes to Lucifer and then jump in the cage'-plan?
It was such a big moment, for Dean to finally let his brother make his own decisions.
And in this episode? He ignored Sam completely, didn't trust him at all and went on and just killed Amy.

I was watching the scene and I went like 'out of character in my opinion!'

After (in my opinion) the crappy, out of character, Castiel-storyline... now this? Yeah, I really love Supernatural but I am not entirely sure of this season.

But well, there have only been 3 episodes, so let's just see
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby Pigeon666 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:18 pm

I don't think Dean should've done it, mostly because he lied to Sam in the process. However, if we look at the past few seasons, Dean has been feeling helpless. The apocalypse was like one big depression fest. He couldn't control his soulless brother. He couldn't stop Cas. Crowley got away. His friend died. He can't control his brothers hallucinations. His second home has been burned to the ground, he can't kill the Levis, and he has been sitting in a couch for 3 weeks.

Then, when something comes up that he CAN control, (The Amy situation) he seizes it like his life depends on it. He needs to be able to control something, anything, and this was one thing he could. I can understand why he did it - that doesnt mean I like it, because i really hated that scene. But I can understand it, at least in part.
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby CLDeangrl on Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:19 pm

I'm with you both on this one. That whole ending royally **** me off. Mainly because Dean had just said he would trust Sam and then he turned right around and betrayed that trust. What the hell?! I understand why he killed Amy, but why keep it from Sam? Why not be up front about it?

And I definitely agree on the kid...that makes no sense. If you're going to take the 'if it's evil, we kill it' approach, you have to do it across the board. Dean got on Sam's case in Croatoan when he couldn't kill the demon virus possessed kid. Sam said "It's a kid," and Dean answered, "no, it's an it...no time for bleeding hearts, Sam." Well, same goes here...this wasn't a kid, it was a creature and it will kill...so why let it go?

To me that whole ending was not only out of character but out of sync...it just didn't make sense and it left me screaming at my TV screen.

On edit...Pigeon got his response in before I got mine up. Interesting point, and yeah, I can see why he'd want to be able to control something. But it still begs the question...why not kill the kid too?
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby Pigeon666 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:34 pm

Yeah, the kid. I felt that Dean probably should have killed him. Why? Well, the kid hadn't killed, true, but if his plan is to get revenge on Dean, then I think he would. Look what revenge did to Sam in season 4. And this kid is a monster, who is far too young to work as a mortician and feed off the dead. So I agree, he should have been killed.

But the kid was practically as helpless as the baby shapeshifter in season six. Should Dean have killed it? I say no, because shapeshifters arent as prone to killing and are pretty human. And Dean has changed, and I think Soulless Sam had an effect. Dean saw his brother kill helpless things, use people/baby monsters as bait, and kill innocents. All the while, Dean would've wondered "Is this how I was? Killing first, seeing the world in black and white?" And maybe he decided to change, as an example to his brother.
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby Bec666 on Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:49 pm

Dean has definitely changed. What bothers me the most is his attitude towards Sam and the lying. It's like he's angry at Sam for the wall falling. It wasn't Sam's idea. Now every time he has an hallucination Dean cops an attitude.

The kid should have died. You could see the look in the kid's eyes, he will kill, probably sooner than later.
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby CLDeangrl on Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:01 pm

Intriguing idea about the shapeshifter baby, but as Dean explained in Nightshifter, Shapeshifters are bascially human, pluse that was a BABY...it hadn't even developed the capacity to form logical thought. This kid was a monster...like the changelings in Season 3...and he obviously had the capacity to not only think, but focus on revenge. It seems cold but really...if you're going to kill Amy cause she's a monster, then the same reasoning applies to the kid.

As for Dean's attitude about Sam's hallucinations...I tend to think of that more as he's scared and he's at the end of his rope. He's been the one having to take care of Sam all his life and now he's facing something he literally can't handle...and that he himself brought on Sam...so he's falling apart under the guilt and lashing out at the last person he should be lashing out at.

It's betraying Sam's trust that really bothers me. I understand WHY Dean's acting the way he is, but I'm just sick and tired of it. I want the kick ass Dean back...I'm REALLY, REALLY tired of the "woe is me" version. And if, as Sera and the writers said, they are stripping away everything the brothers had to rely on and leaving them with just each other this season then they better damn well start trusting each other again or they are going to be up the creek with out a paddle!
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby Ruth78 on Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:09 pm

He couldn't really kill the kid - no reason to.
But he's made a killer of him, probably - how else will he feed now?
Of course what will probably happen is the boy will track Dean down and Sam will learn he's been lied to and isn't trusted by the one person he thought was keeping him grounded :(

I'm so done with angsty, cold Dean (yep, what's with the attitude over Sam's mental problems - why didn't he listen to Sam when he begged for his soul not to be forced in, if he was going to shut down on him, and make snidey remarks about him, as soon as all the warnings came true?)

The truth is, when the writers try to portray Dean as hurt and angsty; they make him appear simply cold, uncaring and aggressive - let's have sexy, badass, protective Dean back and quickly please.

I haven't felt this upset with the show since they demonised Sam, replaced him in Dean's (and a lot of the viewers') affections with Cas, and then had him spend most of season 5 as a whining, pleading mess, begging for forgiveness that his brother wouldn't give.

Now it's Dean I'm majorly angry with, and I don't want to feel that way about either of them - I just want them back in harmony with each other, but I have to be honest, I'm on the point of giving up - as someone said on the other thread, I don't have the energy for it anymore, either.
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby CLDeangrl on Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:23 pm

I hear you about not wanting to feel that way about either of them but I'm not giving up either. If this show has shown us anything, it's the resiliance and basic goodness of our boys and I still believe that will out in the end. It has to get bad before it can get better. I still firmly believe that it WILL get better and I'm sticking it out too...Winchester tough. :cool:
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby Ruth78 on Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:36 am

CLDeangirl - I've only been on here a short while, but I love your optimism and balanced outlook - you must be a nice person to have around! :)
Me, I'm a grumpy cynic :rofl: :blush: If I were a betting girl, I'd bet the beginning of this season will be more like season 2, where Dean kept Sam at arms length by being physically or verbally abusive or pushing him away completely, while he was grieving over John. Still, they've been through worse, I guess!

This brings up a question with me - it's a bit off topic, so I'm sorry to hijack the thread - feel free to ignore me (I feel a bit too new to make a thread of my own :blush: )

it's just, for me, no matter how good the plot of a show is, what decides whether I get into it or not is always the chemistry between the leads,a warmth in the relationship ( I tend to prefer solid friendships to romantic tension, as I don't think this is often very well done in non romantic dramas), and, basically, whether I'm buying what they're selling....These are what got me hooked on Supernatural in season 1, and most of the other shows I watch.

What intrigues me is, I wonder if the writers of shows like this get a bit bugged when fans focus on these
relationships over and above the plots? Because this isn't the only show where the chemistry has been forcibly altered by the writers, and I wonder if it's done because they think they've picked up the "wrong" kind of audience? (I often wonder is SPN was originally expected to have a more male dominated audience)

SPN certainly isn't the only show to do this - I can think of several more over the years - it's almost as if the writers/producers are saying "hey, never mind about them! Look at my awesome plot!)

Sorry for the long post!
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby CLDeangrl on Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:34 pm

First off, thanks for the compliment...I appreciate it! :)

Secondly...never be afraid to start your own thread, that's what this place is about!

Third...it's funny you mention the similarity to the beginning of Season 2. I was struck by that when they had Dean focused on fixing the car in the first episode, just like he had back then, and I had the same thought...he's channeling his emotions into that because he doesn't want to express them. I don't doubt inability to express himself will, continue, it's part and parcel of Dean and I think Sam understands that too. Doesn't mean he can't eventually get past it...he did then, I'm hoping he'll do it again now.

Finally...As a writer myself, I hear you on the change in focus. It could very well be intentional. Reading the companion books for the early seasons, Eric Kripke made it pretty clear that he was all about the whole "monster of the week" vibe and never put too much emphasis into the personal side of Sam and Dean and it was Sera and fellow writer Raelle Tucker who kept reminding him that he needed to flesh out their back story and show more of the emotional side. Now that she's driving the bus, I think Sera is finally getting to go to town with the emotional side and that's why we're getting some of the plot twists we are now. But that's just my guess.

I agree, though, about the characters drawing you in. I know for a fact that it was Sam and Dean as characters and their relationship with each other that drew me in here and has kept me around. That's why it bugs me so much when I see the writers shaking that up too much. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, guys! :P
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby Ruth78 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:18 am

Thanks - that a really interesting insight - and I couldn't agree with you more on if it ain't broke don't fix it - or in this case "fix what you've broken"! :P
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Re: An interesting debate on Episode three

Postby CLDeangrl on Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:17 pm

Yep. Sera doesn't get onboard with that soon and she'll have a riot on her hands! :D
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